"High Five" to RPNeighbor.....> "Did anyone see David Fagus's recent post about retail in Rogers Park and east/west streets being unworkable? He asked what we think but he removed the comments function off his blog.... No public forum there."
Warning: Commentary Article
It's been nearly a year since I started this blog. One year later an example of why I started one popped up in the comments section. Our very own 49th ward democratic committeeman David Fagus doesn't want to hear your thoughts anymore.
Free Speech No Moore Opps, I mean More.
Mr. Democracy? David Fagus has cut off the pubic's thoughts on his blogs site. Once a free to comment blog, Fagus has turned his site into a one sided propaganda site for Alderman " Save our Web Footed Friends" Moore. Fagus joins the likes of DevCorp North, rogerspark.com, forum49 and Heart of Rogers Park ( Kevin O'Neil's CAPS site ) yahoogroup as freedom-less speech. If you write something they don't like, they remove it. If you continue, they ban you. Like all the community names above, Mr. Democracy removed all my posts. I never once called him a name. I just asked too many tough questions.
Not like my readers do to me. Mine are brutal.
Commenters are important in blogging. Letting people speak their mind. Good or bad. Read back in the thousands of comments on my blog over the last year to see some of the vicious/slanderous/ blah, blah, blah names I have been called by Alderman Moores minions and other freaky types. Again I warn you some comments are brutal. I've been called a racist pig and a drunk. I've been called an idiot, a loser and a asshole neighbor. Just look at some of the names Tom Westgard has called Hugh and I in the last week. 'Fools. Vicious, mindless, destructive, loudmouth fools" was his exact words. Some of those above comments come from the police department too. You got to be tough to be in this business. Name calling is part of the game. I never threatened David Fagus on his blog, I challenged his lame theory.
So are we in the 49th Democratic ward or Alderman Moore's Communist state?
25 comments:
Commiteeman Fagus said:
North & South vs. East and West
How much time have you spent thinking about the problems of retail in Rogers Park? I have spent a lot of time. It is a constant source of concern which makes it constantly on my mind. I too would like to see a greater variety of retail, restaurants and other things I enjoy doing. People often talk about Andersonville as a model. People often talk about revitalizing Morse and Howard. Occasional they speak of Jarvis.
I have a thought: East/West streets don’t work for retail. Sound crazy? Name a street that runs East and West between Howard and Addison that is commercially successful and east of Western.
Let me help you. Argyle. Some of you may say Bryn Mawr, but that is not accurate in my opinion. There has been a great deal of investment and it looks nicer than it did, but it still has a great number of vacancies. Nearly entire buildings on the corner of Winthrop and Bryn Mawr sit begging for tenants. The difference between Bryn Mawr and Morse is that its retail is geared towards the middle class shopper. Lawrence might get a mention. It isn’t there yet, but it’s better than it has been.
Where doesn’t it work well? Howard, Jarvis Morse, Devon, Granville, Thorndale, Bryn Mawr, Berwyn, Lawrence, Wilson, Irving Park, Addison. Every section of these streets that is viable also borders Clark, Broadway or Sheridan.
Where doesn’t retail exist at all? Touhy, Pratt, Foster, Montrose, Damen, Ashland
Where East/West does work better is Belmont to downtown. They have tremendous density, but even more so they have great amounts of disposable income. To amass those resources they have the kind of housing stock that the proposed new zoning would allow for Clark and Western. They used to have the kind of housing stock we have worked to protect: single families, two flats and three flats.
Now think of North/South streets. Clark is viable all the way down. Broadway is viable. Western is somewhat viable. Most of Sheridan Rd., our most potentially viable commercial strip in Rogers Park, is largely not in play by community choice, but where it is commercial it works. Farther south Halsted is viable.
I am sure there is a reason. My guess is that most people don’t have a reason to come east. The streets that run east lead into the lake, but even when it leads to Lake Shore Drive it doesn’t help much.
So what do you think?
I think this is absurd.......David, are you attempting to say that the re-birth of both Morse and Howard are in jeopardy due to the fact that both streets run east-west?
I have a thought: East/West streets don’t work for retail. Sound crazy? Name a street that runs East and West between Howard and Addison that is commercially successful and east of Western.
Foster,Montrose,Lawrence,Wilson,Irvingpark......are all way more sucessful than Morse and Howard at this point in time.
The difference between Bryn Mawr and Morse is that its retail is geared towards the middle class shopper. Lawrence might get a mention. It isn’t there yet, but it’s better than it has been.
Bryn Mawr has it's fair share of middle class spots including Mia Francesca, Starbucks,jonnysprockets,and a noodleshop who's name escapes me. OK it also has Lakeshore Realty and the 48th ward Dem Commitee. run effectively by Marion Volini and her son. It also has it's fair share of shops geared to lower income residents and is way way more balanced than Morse or Howard when it comes to income and class.
Marion brought all that business to the 48th ward when she was Alderman. She worked hard and tirelessly to bring balance to that neighborhood and develop East-West Streets not just Clark St. MAry Ann Smith does however get the credit!!!
Come on David......Are you saying that only Clark and Broadway should be geared to the middle class and that all the east west streets be geared to the lower class of our neighborhood?
Please engage us and respond please. We have pleanty of density and disposible income waiting to be spent by the Middle Class of RP
I respectfully await your response.
PS Damen runs North South last time I looked;)
And let's add Granville which has some retail, and Berwyn. Further, let's look at zoning and demographics south and north of Belmont. It may be that there is less commercial zoning on E-W streets north of Belmont than south of it. In just visualizing the streets, it strikes me that such might be the case. Touhy is almost entirely residential except for the intersections of Sheridan and Clark and Ridge (and if anyone proposed a shop west of Sheridan, east of Clark, the citizenry would have a fit). Ditto Pratt, largely. Ashland is also a North/South street last time I checked (and since I live on Ashland I suggest folks take my word over that of Mr. Fagus), and has a lot of residential building from Clybourn north (it's been changing up to Belmont though, over the years). David appears to have a little problem with geography.
It is my understanding that Rogers Park has the 2nd highest per capita income in Chicago (as reported by the Trib when they covered the results of the 2000 census). No doubt developers and the like read the same piece (shortly after the piece ran one of my authors, a trader, talked to me about buying property in RP) hence their activities in our area. But RP'ers are notorious driver-outers, we are mostly an older demographic(than 45 yo, except me, of course!), and every time someone proposes something some group gets up in arms and tries to block it. Water seeks its lowest level. People go for the low-hanging fruit. Why fight to open a business here when it's so much easier elsewhere and foot traffic is more reliable, etc.?
Further, south of Belmont the lake is more developed so people stream from west to east to hit the lake and park. But we shall not develop any lakefront here in RP and if one even suggests such, one will be shot down before comprehensive plans are even presented. We just won't have it.
If I were in the Daly admin I'd do my damnest to steer clear of RP. Too much hassle, not worth the effort.
As for free speech -- it is said that he who owns the press . . . If the DNC is happy with Fagus limiting what is discussed on the site he runs, then that is his/their right. Ditto any other website. Is rogerspark.com really the place for free-wheeling discussion anyway? Or O'Neil's site? People with affiliations to organizations or organizations have a priority to their self-interest first and foremost. If they are a business it is to be profitable. If they are a political organization, it is to preserve, protect and grow the organization and get their candidates elected. And that's ok. Buyer beware, as the saying goes.
Craig -- you are to be commended for letting all us nutcases sound off. But I can't fault the others for not letting folks sound off indiscriminately. You are a private citizen, running a blog as a hobby. Your goal is to get more readers, more posters, more action. You have a self-interest in not limiting discussion just as other sites have a self-interest in controlling the discussion. And, honestly, if the other sites didn't limit the discussions, your blog would have no traffic and then what would you do? ;-)
I have not visited Fagus' site in awhile, but if you saw the comments on his blog you would understand why they were deleted.
It wasn't exactly the kind of debate you want when you are running for re-election. People took him on fairly directly and tended to directly attack the heart of his postings.
Additonally, the comments included a fair number of obvious cheap shots and angry/hostile messages.
Fagus may do nothing more than take notes at meetings and sound off on his blog, but he isn't going to undermine his own campaign. It's his website -- more power to him. Literally.
I can't imagine anyone would be surprised by this. Would you leave those comments up there if you were running for re-election? Ok...let me reprhase that. Would you leave those comments up there if you were running for re-election and wanted to win?
>Fagus may do nothing more than take notes at meetings
If he took notes regularly at neighborhood meetings that would be a big step up on the making himself useful scale. Fagus taking notes at one Morse CAPS meeting is the one exception that proves the rule:
Most of the time, neighborhood meetings are called, nominally to solicit our input, but NO ONE is taking notes.
Take the four recent zoning meetings, for example.
Fagus wrote...
>East/West streets don’t work for retail.
Let's be rational here. You can't postulate a relationship like this without proposing a mechanism. The ancient Egyptians believed animal sacrifices caused the Nile to flood.
What is this, some kind of urban planning feng shui?
If this were Fagus' thesis topic at UIC's CUPPA I think David would have some trouble with his advisor.
Pamela wrote...
>If the DNC is happy with Fagus limiting what is discussed on the site he runs, then that is his/their right.
Fagus is not trying to convince anyone. It is not an attempt to start a dialog. He is providing talking points to the faithful to use in defense of Moore writing off retail districts in Rogers Park: our retail strips are doomed due to mystical forces beyond our control, the most merciful thing we can do for them is put them out of their misery by cutting curb cuts through their hearts and convert them to condos.
Thanks for clarifying David. Of course it was clear that you meant to say that,......you did'nt and I thought I'd have a little fun with it.
I can't speak for the other nitwits on this BEEELOG!
Go Sox in this cycle!
I don't agree with the dismissal of Bryn Mawr and Granville. These streets are improving and have places I frequent such as Francesca's for nice dinners and the Thai place on Granville. Granville also has the Barking Lot dog groomers, which is a great place and buzzing with activity. And let's not forget Metropolis over there. Hey, if Morse was anything like those streets, I'd be pleased.
David- reading your post it sounded defeatest to me. I guess I did not get that you were talking about Clark Steet being the main focus and also I don't think I agree with that entirely. To me Clark Street has a ton of stores I will never shop at to put it bluntly. Yes, I go to A&T and get tacos at various places, but that's about it.
You also mentioned Sheridan as viable and I think we have some problems with that around here we like to call "no parking". Maybe if parking was added somehwhere it could work, but Sheridan is already such a freeway, wouldn't it be nice to turn west on Morse or Howard and grab dinner at a nice place? I think so.
For a hopping east/west street-Take a look at Division Street - although I guess that's considered downtown or close. You also left Devon Avenue out and it is a bustling retail spot. I have shopped and eaten there often as well.
I truly believe if we had a Metropolis (pun not intended) close by, we'd be there. No disrespect to ennui, but Metropolis has better coffee and service (sorry).
and finally, you did ask what we thought didn't you? I hope just because some might not handle you with kid gloves, you won't dismiss the forum here as a whole. I find many dedicated community members are here and they have plenty of good ideas and don't just tear everything down.
The fact is MANY OF US (myself included) spend our money OUTSIDE the ward because the choices are not so great here.
David Fagus wrote: Four, our per capita financial demographics are more like the middle of the city pack in dollars. We could all think of 5 or maybe even 10 communities without much effort that are higher. Don't need data for that one.
Actually, you do need data for that one. That is just the point of the census -- to provide us with actual data as opposed to assumption. Unfortunately I seem to have misplaced my "debunking the politicos" file that has this data but your comment is a nice reminder that I should find it and put the stats on the table.
Okay, here's some data:
Source: Census 2000, www.chicagoareahousing.org;
DEMOGRAPHICS
Rogers Park
Population 63,484
Density (people/sq mi) 34,502
Percent of total by age:
18 and Under 24.6%
19 to 44 53.4%
45 and Over 22.0%
Median Income $31,602
Total Population in the
Labor Force
33,929
Percent public transit
commuters
38.0%
Edgewater
Population 62,198
Density (people/sq mi) 36,373
Percent of total by age:
18 and Under 15.5%
19 to 44 52.0%
45 and Over 32.5%
Median Income $35,766
Total Population in the
Labor Force
35,047
Percent public transit
commuters
38.0%
Evanston
Population 74,239
Density (people/sq mi) 7,321
Percent of total by age:
18 and Under 26.05
19 to 44 42.6%
45 and Over 31.4%
Median Income $56,335
Total Population in the
Labor Force
41,086
Percent public transit
commuters
18.4%
Bucktown/
Wicker Park
Population 87,435
Density (people/sq mi) 19,259
Percent of total by age:
18 and Under 23.1%
19 to 44 55.2%
45 and Over 21.7%
Median Income $ 38,915
Total Population in the
Labor Force
45,631
Percent public transit
commuters
29.0%
Lincoln
Square
Population 44,574
Density (people/sq mi) 17,480
Percent of total by age:
18 and Under 19.6%
19 to 44 50.4%
45 and Over 30.0%
Median Income $ 40,898
Total Population in the
Labor Force
25,325
Percent public transit
commuters
31.0%
Chicago
Population 2,896,016
Density (people/sq mi) 12,376
Percent of total by age:
18 and Under 26.2%
19 to 44 26.2%
45 and Over 29.2%
Median Income $ 38,625
Total Population in the
Labor Force
1,358,054
Percent public transit
Commuters
26%
I got this right off Devcorps economic development collateral. (No, I did not fact check it.)
Dear David Fagus,
You said:
my point is not to give up on East/West, but to develop the streets most conducive to development (North/South) to demonstrate viability and then send the spillover we cultivate towards the more challenging East/West streets. This is my theory. Who said this requires PhD level preparation and analysis to throw out a topic for thought?
Obviously retailers are going to be attracted to the streets with the most car and pedestrian traffic and the fewest obvious signs of street crime. It's a total no brainer - do we really need to theorize this further? I have talked to a few retailers on the "challenging" streets who have moved out - it's about the crime, actual and perceived. Duh.
It is abundantly clear and obvious what many middle class residents of this ward want in terms of retail(especially those newer to the ward, who are perhaps less inclined to be attached to the "hippy hood" thing) - the existing mix is totally out of whack. What is not clear is why it is taking those in positions of leadership so long to produce this outcome - to paraphrase what you said, it doesn't require a PhD. Just committment - political and otherwise, and a certain amount of negotiating skill. So why is it taking so long? Now, that is some thing worth theorizing. There seem to be many middle class residents who want the status quo - they see any improvement as a sign of incipient gentrification, which is, to their way of thinking, 100% bad. If businesses who cater to the middle class come in, that's a pretty clear sign of gentrification - so they are right about that part of it, anyway. There are probably also some existing businesses that would rather not have the competition - I think Ennui would turn into a ghost town if Metropolitan or Intelligentsia moved in down the street. Why? Because their products and service are demonstrably better.
Although I am practically giving myself a hernia trying to give DevCorp the benefit of the doubt, can someone please explain to me why they only got around to posting the most basic kind of retail attraction information on their site this summer? I mean, for gods sake, isn't that the core of their stated mission? I just don't get it.
I love the fact that we are discussing this. If they won't have a comments section on the Ward site, by God we'll do it here!
Nico's Mom: great points made. I can't speak to what else Dev Corp is doing. I do know they have a program to help existing stores improve curb appeal and they helped the florist on Morse with that- looks much better nowadays. But I am disappointed (AGAIN) with the shops going in on Morse now.
Osco's demise is a real thorn as well. Maybe we should make a wish list of businesses we would patronize if they set up business.
Of course, until Morse and Howard become more "friendly" and not filled with loitering and hoodlum types, we may see a repeat of Sweet Occasions.
I have a theory, too! It's about the brontosaurus. Would anyone like to hear it?
>This is my theory. Who said this requires PhD level preparation ...
A PhD is not required, but would it be too much to ask for the kind of critical thinking one might encounter in a first high school science class?
>I have a thought: East/West streets don’t work for retail. Sound crazy?
Frankly, yes. WHY don't East/West street work for retail?
Was a guy with a goat refused service at a restaurant on an east-west street in Rogers Park?
>Most of Sheridan Rd., our most potentially viable commercial strip in Rogers Park, is largely not in play by community choice...
What do you mean?
Why is Sheridan Road not in play?
When did the community choose not to develop retail on Sheridan Road?
>I am not trying to be the Alderman or do his job, at least not this election cycle.
Are you the Alderman in waiting?
>East/West streets don’t work for retail.
>This is my theory.
Your theory does not seem to have much to recommend it except that it appears to support Moore's proposed zoning map changes which propose massive density increases for Clark and Western.
How did you develop your theory?
Did you examine the proposed zoning map and work backwards?
>East/West streets don’t work for retail.
>This is my theory. Who said this requires PhD level preparation and analysis
You seem to claim some kind of right to theorize without basis in fact, in spite of which I would like to ask you to please read the following articles and reconcile them with your theory:
Sunday School
Retail History in RP
Howard Street - A Helluva Street
The Morse Avenue Card Players
Do you imagine Rogers Park's history began when you arrived on the scene?
>I lead the Democratic Party in the 49th Ward...
Can you please expand on this?
It what sense do you lead?
>IDEAS is what I put out and seek.
you're an idea man?
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