In case you missed this comment from Michael K.
Here is the note I sent to DevCorp about Gateway development and the rather sad response:
Good Afternoon,
I live near Fargo and Greenview and I pass through Gateway Center's bus terminal every day going to and from work.
Recently, I noticed that there has been a great deal of activity on the lower level in the southwest wing that faces the bus depot. I am quite interested to know what businesses are setting up shop. Any information you have would be greatly appreciated.
Also, I initially tried to send this note to info@devcorpnorth.org but it was returned accounting to the mailbox being full.
Sincerely,
Michael K
Dear Michael -
Thanks for the email and follow up. I'll make sure that the info account gets cleared so others don't get that error message in the future. Based on a recent email from the leasing agent for Gateway, this is what I know:
An ordinance approving the vertical subdivision of the 3-story commercial building at Gateway Centre Plaza was passed at the September 14 city council meeting. Upon obtaining a recordable document, the closing will be scheduled for the sale to Life Storage Centers. Life Storage Centers is an upscale operator of environmentally controlled public storage space that will occupy approximately 104,000 square feet on the Paulina level of Gateway with their main office and retail sales at 7524 N. Paulina facing the plaza. Anticipated opening is January 2006.
On September 2, 2005, Spirit Halloween Stores opened for business in the 10,000 square foot space between Marshalls and Dominick's. This is a temporary lease through November 15, 2005. The leasing company is trying to identify a permanent tenant for this space.
There are currently three (3) leases and one (1) letter of intent currently under negotiation for space at the Gateway Centre and Gateway Centre Plaza.
The construction of the pedestrian walkway which will connect to the new Howard Street Terminal with the Gateway Centre atrium will be coordinated with the CTA during construction of their new building. Depending on the CTA timeline, the leasing agents do not fore-see this construction beginning until 2007.
Hope this helps
Kimberly
Michael K.'s comment:
A storage facility? That's the best we can do? I thought we were trying to increase foot traffic and retail sales. Long term storage isn't the kind of bustling pedestrian business we need. If we're serious about attracting better business to this area we need to do far better than this.
No wonder there are no "Coming Soon" signs. No-one wants to be Evanston's closet. What a joke.
My comment's are:
1) Michael, at least you got a response. Ms. Bares hasn't answered one of my e-mails/phone calls/letters in over a year.
2) Did DevCorp North or Alderman Moore lobby for this ordinance approving the vertical subdivision of the 3-story commercial building at Gateway Centre Plaza?
3) Thank you Michael K. for sharing this with us.
72 comments:
I agree with Michael K. What a joke! It gives evidence to the fact that our alderman is not doing enough to provide decent retail shopping in Rogers Park.
Top Secret! It's all going to land on Paulina/Howard if we agree to upzone.
I don't want to bicker here but I am at that station every day and at least twice each weekend. There are always people who are waiting 20 - 30 minutes for the next bus to come. If there were shops where I could browse or just get a snack (aside from Dunkin' Donuts)off the depot area while keeping an eye out for my bus, I would jump for joy. On weekends there are scads of people waiting to catch the bus to Old Orchard Shopping Center. I can't believe there wasn't a better plan in place to hijack some of that business.
The biggest problem with Gateway is that they did not have businesses signed to leases before it was built. Had the building been at even 50% or 60% leased at the time it was built, I am sure it would have been a huge success.
Now they are scrambling to put anyone in the building since they are losing their shirts. Do you think the management company cares who leases the space? No, because they are based out of Northbrook. You'd think that we could have gotten a local management company that has a vested interest in the neighborhood.
The mistakes have been many thus far but not only do I think that by simply giving up and letting seasonal businesses and non-retail businesses occupy the space we are being given the short end of the stick, we are being told that you don't deserve better. You deserve your currency exchanges and liquor stores and no more. That is insulting.
Michael- I know that sad disappointed feeling- I feel that way when I leave for work in the am and find loads of trash littering Morse Ave. even with the SSA picking it up daily (?). It's disappointing and makes me weary, but I won't give up and I'm sure you won't either.
Thomas- Thank you for articulating so well the deal with Gateway- you are so right- it is not a community haven - it's a strip mall!
Maybe if there were some patios with a Potbelly (I won't say Starbucks)or something- I've seen this in other strip malls but it still doesn't feel "homey" or really inviting- maybe if there were trees or more landscaping it would help.
I'm on the fence about the storage facility, not sure. I rarely go over there myself- At the risk of being reamed -I find the Dominicks on Broadway much more bearable than Gateway-maybe the developers should hear that- I am right in the middle of both and which one do I choose and why!
Gateway is an island, separated from the neighborhood by parking lots and uninviting design.
I recently went to the new bar by the Jarvis stop. That is what we should be promoting, that type of local, intimate retail space.
However, to the point of gateway. The parking lot is always full between Dominicks/Balley's. Why can they not fill the stores in between? A small deli-type (not subway) place would do wonders for getting people to stay a few minutes longer before climbing back into their cars and getting the hell out.
Jim,
I totally agree. I live right around the corner from the bar on Jarvis with the name I have yet to decipher. A coffee shop would be nice. I go to the Coffee and Tea exchange in Lakeview to buy beans because there is nothing within walking distance of my house except Dunkin Donuts. Blech.
For sandwiches, I go to Cap'n Nemo's on Clark. Maybe we can get them to expand over there.
We HAVE to look closely at what we need to do in order to bring more businesses into Rogers Park. Anyone know what Andersonville's model was? We should take a closer look at the model they used to bring in all those small businesses.
Michael - As for a coffee/beverage shop, I just moved near the corner of the pub, and there is a theatre troop moving into the space next to the spa/massage place in the other business space on Jarvis, diagonally across from the pub. I believe it used to be a coffee shop.
One of the people working on the theatre space said they were thinking about reopening the coffee house to supplement the artistic productions they are planning. I hope they do. It seems the hours would probably be irregular, at best.
There has been some "talk" of a restaurant moving in next to the pub. I don't know anything about it.
There is also a dog groomer moving into that building. That seems like a great fit for the neighborhood.
Will the Halloween/costume shop get tax breaks for moving into Gateway? What a deal for them. That's likely to hurt a business like Lost Eras, operating further south on Howard and Rogers. We let a business come in for 2-3 months, take advantage of us, and then leave.
Meanwhile, a costume/antique store that is here year-round has uninvited competition and suffers during the most profitable time of the year for costume sales. I find something intrinsically wrong with that. I understand why the public storage business is moving in, but I would hope that an organization devoted to supporting local business in Rogers Park would take a closer look at how a decision like allowing the Halloween shop could impact local businesses that are here for more than a 12 weeks to clean up and leave.
The new bar on Jarvis is lovely, especially the way the window open onto the street. Really nicely thought out and very welcoming. We noticed that the storefront next to the bar has something going on...a restaurant? Oh, joy! I hope if the theater folks open a coffee place, they will keep regular hours. That's a problem I had with the ice cream place on Morse - the hours were so irregular.
Browse the bookstore, have dinner, go to the theater, post theater drink, all in RP and all within one block? Nirvana!
Not so sure about the groomer...I'm glad they are going in, but the space seems kind of big - maybe they can supplement with some retail (BTW we buy Precise lamb and rice diet...would much rather buy in RP than Evanston). I hope they can make it and wish them luck.
On another post, I asked whether anyone had contact with other community groups in areas like Andersonville. It feels a little pathetic, but would it be useful to try to get some advice from them?
To me the Gateway is a wash - it was an ill considered project from the start. I guess RP needed a supermarket, but the Gateway is totally out of scale and as some people have mentioned, they didn't have enough tenants signed up when they started. Now the Halloween store and storage. It's just so pathetic.
Is it my imagination, or is the lighting on Howard really dim at night? We drove down this weekend (coming from La Cucina de Donatella, a nice family run Italian at Howard and Ridge - kind of expensive, but everything homemade. BYOB).
> ... getting the self-storage place in there was the right thing to do ...
Self-storage at this location is a pathetic public admission of the utter failure of Gateway Mall, and an indictment of DevCorp North's incompetence.
>Imagine yourself standing on the sidewalk over by that shoe store.
Imagine yourself AT THE BUS STOP. Lovely view of vacant stores and storage bins. A storage bin is the kind of place you visit once every few months.
>It's sad that the human factor wasn't more present in their minds when they built that thing
The design of Gateway Mall makes it impossible to bop in and pick something up while transfering. The spaces that are occupied are a half mile walk from the CTA station. Gateway Mall fails as transit-oriented retail.
>Now they are scrambling to put anyone in the building since they are losing their shirts.
What is your evidence for this? DevCorp North's partners in the CONSTRUCTION of Gateway Mall made plenty of money They paid themselves with a line-item in the property-tax subsidized plan Alderman Moore pushed through. Don't worry about them. They already made their money. They are only scrambling because the vacancies are a political liability for Moore and DevCorp North.
>The biggest problem with Gateway is that they did not have businesses signed to leases before it was built. Had the building been at even 50% or 60% leased at the time it was built, I am sure it would have been a huge success.
> ... they didn't have enough tenants signed up when they started.
DevCorp North and their partners had pre-construction leases from Dominck's, Bally's, and Marshalls. In terms of square footage, it WAS more than 50% leased.
> ... Potbelly's ... Starbuck ... Cap't Nemo's ...
Not gonna happen. Dominick's already has a deli and coffee shop. The controlling partner in Gateway is James DiMatteo of the Dominick DiMatteos. The main interest of the DevCorp North and their partners is making the Dominick's successful. You need to think of something that's not already a department in the mega grocery. Good luck!
Hugh,
When I say 50% - 60% I am spaeking primarily of the number of store fronts.
This is by far the worst Dominick's I have ever been to. I used to live near one on Sheridan just south of Berwyn and it was small but well maintained and well staffed. At this one they are more expensive than just about any other grocery in the city and they have a horrible selection. The deli is enormous but they have row on row of the same product. They have all Dominick's store brand meats and not much else. The store is grossly understaffed and it is hard to exit to the south with a grocery cart unless you cut through the parking garage. I gave up on the place. I use Peapod for essentials and shop mom and pop places for meat and produce. Guess what? I get better quality and spend about 20% lesson groceries. Maybe if more people did the same they would get there act together. They know they are the only place to shop for folks without a car.
Nico and Dan,
The place next to the bar has been rumoured to be a lot of things. Some claim it is going to be a new "upscale" liquor store that will replace the old one and carry more wine and whatnot. Others say it is going to be a restaurant that will service the bar. Another person has suggested that it will be a coffee shop that will connect to the space on the corner somehow. Whatever the outcome the same person owns that space as owns the bar and if he puts the same thought and consideration of his neighbors into future ventures as he has into that one, it will benefit us all greatly.
"Browse the bookstore, have dinner, go to the theater, post theater drink, all in RP and all within one block? Nirvana!"
Wouldn't that be great? Not to mention many of us could then walk home instead of having to drive or take a long CTA ride to another area of the city for a night on the town. Imagine ending the night with a walk along the beach and listening to the wind whistle through the trees on a cool, brisk fall night. Ahhh. That would make RP one of the best kept secrets in Chicago.
I'd love to see those retail spaces in RP filled in with something other than public storage. Come to think of it, Isn't there public storage on Jarvis and Greenview, across from the l-stop?
How much public storage do we need in RP?
Wow, I got an idea. It’s a bad idea, but an idea nonetheless. Rogers Park could be the one-stop closet for stuff Chicago can't part with. I can hear the radio ads now:
(cue rockin' radio musak)
"Can't part with those old golf clubs? Don't throw them away! Store it! From that Jack Daniels mirror your wife wants out of the garage to your new mega-yacht you don't want to drive down to Belmont to collect, Rogers Park is you PLACE for SPACE!
Fellas! Don’t put up with the nagging anymore. Don't wait until she tosses it in the garbage when you're not around! You don't have to throw it away. Keep it in Chicago's one-stop place for storage.
No space? No problem! Rent Space in Rogers Park!
(Cue speed voice guy) "Tax breaks and TIF funding available for those who qualify."
hmm...maybe a little too sarcastic. Maybe RP needs an ad campaign to attract businesses. Any ideas?
I hear you on Dominicks. The worst part about the store for me is the checkout lines. The design is poor. I sure as hell don't buy my meat and produce there. Although I just moved, I love the Super Mercado on Morse and Greenview. I try to do as much shopping there as possible for the essentials to help keep them in business. Real friendly, good prices, good quality.
I think we should contact the community groups in Andersonville. I'd go as far as to ask the Alderman for some ideas. I mean, what do we have to lose? I'm sure they would at least share some insight. Especially since we went through the rezoning thing. I don't think everything that worked there is going to work here, but it's worth researching.
Good idea Dan2. I will send an email tonight asking for advice and ideas. I think it would be great if everyone on this blog did the same. Maybe if they are inundated with a enough correspondence from us, it will be brought to our ward's attention. I mean, I'm sure it is in their best interest to give their neighbors a little help. Better yet, we should copy the ward on all our correspondence with other community leaders.
Would anyone here be willing to go to a community meeting in Andersonville, or set up a meeting with their alderman or community council?
I could be a good way to see first hand what they do differently. How the residents comunicate with the alderman/community council and vice versa.
It could give us some insight in how to start changing things in RP.
I admittedly am not good at organizing these types of things.
Also, the Dominicks @ gateway has probably the worst produce selection I have ever seen.
For meats/dairy, I now shop at the Morse Fresh Market. Great quality, and almost half the price.
Last month when I was beaten and robbed near Damen & Fargo, the first thing I needed to do was to put my things in storage and get the hell out of that 49th district rat hole they call Rogers Park.
Storage space business a good idea at Gateway shopping center? You bet! With the gangbangers banging away and residents fleeing, folks gotta have somewhere to put their stuff somewhere until they find a new home, don't you think?
Michael- I love love love your comment.
What can we do? I know I want to do something. Meeting with Andersonville people is a thought I'd consider. I really feel like we are at a crossroads and now is the time to act.
Dan2- I know Morse market's prices are better but their produce and selection isn't always that pristine. They seem to be improving though and their meat counter has gotten friendlier as time goes on too. I used to be scared of those guys.
Hugh- that is so depressing about the iron grip on Gateway- sickening.
Doesn't is just take alot of persuasion and follow up and meetings to "sell" people (and business owners) on our neighborhood. Read this month's DevCorp newsletter- the stats are there for retailers- RP has great potential. Let's start beating the drum everyone.
Michael harrington I meant- I like your comments too Michael c.
That Gethsemane story is SICKENING!!! But thanks to you Michael for sharing it.
As for contacting Andersonville, why not, let's do Edgewater Community Council too. I'd be happy to go to meetings down there. I think we need to be well prepared and respectful of their time, if they have some time to spare us. (And if things don't work out in the 49th, we'll at least have met some of our future neighbors). Copying the Ward with meeting minutes and correspondence with other wards is an interesting idea...but I'm afraid I like because it would be rubbing Joe's nose in it. Not sure he would care.
My hope is that they would attend any meeting we are abe to set up. Perhaps we could each simply send emails to Edgewater, Andersonville, and Ward 49 expressing an interest in a meeting between the 3 to investigate solutions to common problems? If we could get a meeting like that going with neighbors and other Aldermen involved I think it would be great. I have mentioned before that I think it is dangerous to propose solutions for RP without keeping in mind that we are only part of a much larger picture. If we lose sight of where our neighbors and the rest of the city are going we are sure to be left behind. We need to ally ourselves with other voices in city hall to ensure that we are ALL heard.
We should also talk to the Andersonville Chamber of Commerce.
Is there a way we could hold some sort of meeting and "invite" some of their community leaders to RP for some conversation? Maybe hold some sort of gathering at the Heartland Cafe, buy them lunch/dinner and pepper them with questions?
Man, I'm not a rich guy but I would help pick up the tab.
Agree, agree Michael K.
I feel a bit leery about ward 49 people being there - but it would be interesting to see if Joe would agree to show up. But we should definitely copy them and send them the correspondence.
Like dan2, I would also be willing to donate cash and time to help host such a meeting. Thanks for taking the time to get the ball rolling Michael K. - I'm really curious to see where this leads. I'm not familiar with the various community groups down there...will start research ASAP - but I think it would be good if meeting invitations came from a single source - we can talk about it more when we are more ready.
I think if we are going to do something like this we need to do our homework and set some priorities of things to discuss and by all means not turn it into a bitch fest. Any time they will give us is extremely generous on their part and we don't want to wear out our welcome.
Long time residents - has anything like this been tried in the past? If so, how did it work out?
Michael Harrington, do you think the owners of Gethsemane would be willing to do a "pre-meeting" to give us some background? They have a foot in each camp so to speak - their insight would be useful I'm sure. You know who else might be good to talk to, the owner of that natural foods store on Broadway in Edgewater, across from the supermarket. Don't know the name - I always think of it as the "green store" because it is bright green. I don't really know her, but she told me she used to have a store on Morse (moved because it was too scary for her employees, she said). Now she has the store in Edgewater, but has a house in RP, I believe. They just did an expansion of that store, and I think the local Alderman/Chamber of Commerce were instrumental in helping them get the space, which formerly housed some kind of auto shop. Does anyone on this blog know her?
I think that if we are going to start taking action like this, we need to really be organized and unified in our approach. I don't know that we need to start an organization or anything, but we should all definately meet and talk about this.
I'm all for this meeting. My only concern with bringing DevCorp or the Alderman into the picture is that I don't want them to hijack the meeting or cut us off at the pass. Additionally, that has the potential to be an uncomfortable situation if we ask for the Alderman from Andersonville to attend -- seeing as how we are asking political and community leaders from Andersonville for ideas and help in our own Ward. They are collegues in the City Council, and they may view that as stepping on another council member's turf.
Really, I want to be able to talk to these people from the perspective of concerned community citizens asking for ideas and information about how it can be done, and the level of support we need to achieve this.
All to often, our community leaders come up with excuse after excuse as to why these things can't be done. We hear it at CAPS and community meetings. I don't want any politicans or community leaders put in a defensive or political position where they feel they need to respond by mentioning the things they have done or are doing. That puts our guests from Andersonville in an uncomfortable and unfair position. Additionally, we would be spinning our wheels again.
To start, maybe a bunch of us should attend a Chamber of Commerce meeting, attempt to add an item to their agenda at the next meeting so we can ask questions, or attempt to schedule a meeting with the Alderman in Andersonville.
Let's do it in the manner they feel most comfortable with. I'm more than willing to buy them lunch or dinner for their time.
Let's be friendly, polite, not bitch about crime and our community leaders. We should simply ask them for information and ideas; Tell them the state of our neighborhood now (keeping politics and bitching to a minimum); ask them what they would recommend and what worked for them.
There is/was a large TIF in Andersonville around Clark as well. I wonder how that has worked for them as well. Maybe a TIF on our section of Clark would do wonders, maybe not. Let's find out.
I have TONS of questions ranging from zoning to attracting small businesses.
Then, we should request a meeting with OUR community leaders and politicans and share our knowledge. Let them know what we think. Again, I think that some things they did may work; others may not.
What we need to determine now is the correct method to proceed with all this.
So, how should we move forward? I think we should all meet somewhere to discuss it.
I just thought about this...imagine our first pitch for a meeting with Ald. Mary Ann Smith.
"Hello, Alderman Smith's office? Hi. I was calling to invite the Alderman to a meeting of concerned citizens. Yes, we all met on an internet site called "The Morse Hellhole" and we were wondering if..."
How funny is that?
BTW - I liked the radio spot Dan2. Maybe when the Gateway storage business starts to turn south, you can float the idea to them.
Hey, Michael Harrington - are you planning to run for Alderman again?
Oh, pleeeeze say yes!
I agree with dan2's 4:42 post. Perhaps leave the 49th out of it for now.
I think one thing moving forward is not to rush. It's good to be enthusiastic, but let's do our homework. Let's think carefully about what we hope to learn from these conversations and plan our questions accordingly. In the mean time, perhaps the feelers that Michael K. is sending out will show that they are willing to talk to us. I don't think we should crash any of their standing meetings - the people who attend those should not have to sit through RP questions, even if we can get them on the agenda. I'd be much more comfortable with a stand alone meeting where we can learn from their leaders.
I actually think this blog is a good place to do our planning for now, and then we can meet to finalize details. What do you all think?
Charlotte Walters, long-time owner of Lost Eras Antiques on Howard, was until recently a member of DevCorp North, the owners of Gateway Mall. I see that neither she nor her business are currently listed as members.
DevCorp North members
In fact, Ms. Walters was a Commissioner of the Howard Special Service Area (SSA #19) which helps fund DevCorp North with property taxes. I wonder if she still is.
This is her big month.
We used to ahve a Gold's Gym on Rogers, now we have a Bally's in the Mall.
We used to have a liquor store on the southwest corner of Howard and Clark, now we have a liquor department in the Dominick's.
We used to have bank on Howard just west of the EL, now we have a teller in the Dominick's.
This is characteristic of TIF-supported development. It hurts retail in the surrounding area.
I think that we should really get together but not until we have voted on an agenda. I think a good starting point would to be to post a new talking point everyday and allow a certain amount of discussion before we vote on whether or not it is a good talking point. This process could take a few weeks I think. Once an agenda has been set we can get together maybe at the Gateway and have a discussion. I think the Gateway or Heartland would be best because we could walk around the hood to illustrate our points. Maybe 2 meetings beore we ask for a meeting would work even better. Once organized we start trying to organize a meeting with community leaders. We can flyer to get others to come just as well as the ward office (probably better). In the meantime we should be sending out signals so that we are not blind siding anyone. I don't like the idea of just showing up at another wards meeting. It may seem like an ambush. Let me know your thoughts.
Craig, I know you have a lot going on already with this site so I will host these votes if you'd like. I don't want to ambush your site.
I think planning sessions are in order. If you want to do it electronically/over blog- I guess that's okay, but I'd be willing to have more than one meeting myself. The locations sound fine too.
I think we can come up with some good ideas on our own too- we know our ward better than anyone else. And every neighborhood is unique.
I wonder if we can come up with some really good pro-active ideas and approaches if Joe will work with us on this.
I saw a post on 24/7 today about having vision. One thing we could do is decide on a vision for our community and vote on that. What do we WANT to see. And of course, what DON'T we want to see also. We need to come to some kind of consensus and then we will have strength in our numbers and vision for the neighborhood.
Count me in! And if Harrington doesn't want to run, we should find someone who will. I myself have been pondering the idea and I am probably not alone in that.
We need an Alderman who truly cares about THIS WARD and is focused on problem-solving and moving thru and resolving issues in the ward. We need an Alderman who will act as a PR agent for RP and entice the right businesses to come. We need an Alderman who will listen to what the community wants and then act on it. This Alderman will work for US not the other way around.
Maybe Joe will be this person. If not, let's get someone else for the job. It's not personal, but then it is. After all, we live here!
I hate to be the wet blanket here but now that Joe and his minions have read that some RPers are off to solicit assistance from Edgewater and Ms. Smith's office, I think we can be pretty sure that he and his will work very quickly (if they haven't already) to see that Ms. Smith is unavailable to RPers. I'm sure her office will be very polite when they tell RPers that they only oversee Edgewater and really can't do much for us and that we'll need to contact our Alderman. . . Not to be too cynical, but I imagine that Edgewater businesses such as Ann Sathers will also be unavailable. The downside of posting to a public blog is that it's available to everyone. If one intends to go around the Alderman one should do it offline, out of the light. There are very strong forces behind Mr. Moore and they are much bigger than little local developers. Don't underestimate Mr. Moore.
Please stop this horrible defeated talk. I hope that Joe Moore reads this and uses it as a way to gauge his next move. That is idealistic to be sure but I have had it with the defeatists. I understand that some people have had rather rough times and think that abandoning the neighborhood is the way to go, but I am here to stay. I am going to be here until the gangs are gone and the dugs are a memory. Don't try and scare me away with this kind of talk.
I want all the people who read this blog to stop thinking of themselves as foghorns that sound off about every last thing you disagree with and start doing something to change it. I can appreciate just so much bitching before I start to think, "Let's Get Moving!"
I don't mean to be defeatist. I mean to help by explaining what's what so that we can better work around the forces that are working against us. Knowing the lay of the land is helpful, if not necessary to prevail. Ignoring the reality of the situation will virtually guarantee failure.
Joe takes great offense to being criticized, whether criticism is constructive or not, and going around him to other aldermen and their business communities -- and announcing such on a blog -- is sure to get him keeping one step ahead of such activity. Further, just about everyone who posts to this blog is persona non grata in his book. Until he decides he is not running he will work to protect his power/office. If those who are intent on taking action know this then they can work in a fashion to avoid his ire/obstruction, etc.
Pamela's right. We have acted out of naivete and we will have to get much more strategic.
Chicago politics. What a pigsty.
Pamela, I have a lot of respect for the opinions you have posted on this blog. What are the "very strong forces" behind Joe? If you don't wish to enumerate them on this blog, would you be willing to discuss this offline? If there are any other long time residents who can give some background on this on or offline I would be very grateful. I am trying to figure out how Joe has kept winning all these years...I have certain ideas, but you are all so much better informed than I am.
Nico's Mom,
I believe the popular theory of Joe's re-election is that people often vote a straight Democratic ticket. In what is a very transient neighborhood, people often are not familiar with their aldermen or state reps. I know I was guilty of the same when I first moved to the city. I looked at the ballot and thought, "Who are all these people? I'll just vote for the first democrat."
Joe and DevCorp North have been doing just what you are all proposing for years. They have sought out and courted many many businesses as well as the insight from our neighbors. Hell, Kimberly Bares came to DevCorp North from The Edgewater Community Council.
DevCorps Visioning process was quite well attended and referred to in their most recent newsletter. The two meetings held at Morseland and Jamaica Jerk brought many current small business owners from around the city to encourage them to open just the types of business' we are all asking for.
These are just two examples. The thing alot of you on this blog here are missing is that it thankfully does not happen over night.
Andersonville/Edgewater were basically in the same position 10-12 years ago.
Why people have not taken more risk in opening small businesses in Rogers Park is a much more complicated question. The answer is not however because Joe and DevCorp didn't want them.
Go ahead and organize yourselves. Create your vision and bring it to the Alderman and DevCorp. I think you will find you are speaking with people who share your concerns and desires.
Running down to Ald Smith and crying on her shoulder will get you no where.
Kimberely is WAY ahead of us. She is already trying to do for Rogers Park what she did for Andersonville. We just need to give DevCorp North more time, 10 or 12 years should do it.
I think we should also do some research about who's in bad with whom Alderman wise. Pamela's (and other's) comments would indicate that Ms. Smith has something significant to lose/gain by helping us in any way that offends Joe. It would be very useful to know what those dynamics are. Long-timers, any information you can give us here, on or offline?
You may hate the Republicans, but look at how they came to power. Among other morally repugnant, ethically disasterous, and probably sociopathic things, they are incredibly organized. As I read in the Reader recently, in a letter to the editor from a Republican activist (paraphrased) "why should we waste time marching in the street when there is a perfectly good election right around the corner".
I meant to say who's in BED with whom...but who's in BAD with whom is obviously useful information too.
Here is a report commission by the Andersonville Chamber of Commerce that echoes some of what you said about how they created a destination. Very thought provoking.
Andersonville Study of Retail Economics
In Andersonville, residents and business worked together to nurture locally-owned small business and to preserve the character of their business district.
In Rogers Park, DevCorp North brought in bulldozers, raized 20 acres near our transit hub, and created a theme-park for chain stores, a Locally-Owned Business Free Zone.
Thanks Charlie and Hugh. We obviously have a lot to learn from you and others who have been engaged for a longer time in these types of discussions.
So, my follow up questions are:
> "Why people have not taken more risk in opening small businesses in Rogers Park is a much more complicated question."
1) Would someone care to spell out the complications? (I have my own ideas but I would like to hear from some of the long-timers).
2) Would someone care to comment on how the proposed rezoning relates to Ms. Bares purported goal? Hugh, care to take this one?
3) Would someone care to comment on the Gethsemane story Michael Harrington posted - I still can't get over that one - and how charging so much for Gateway center space relates to DevCorps development plan.
Hugh - I tried the Andersonville Study of Retail Economics link you thoughtfully provided. It did not work. I am very eager to read this report; is there somewhere else I can get it?
Pamela - I don't even think that this is about the Alderman right now. If he knows about this, GOOD. He won’t be surprised when we hopefully come to him with some ideas.
I don't really subscribe to x-files politics. I would HOPE that if the Alderman's peeps knew that we were interested in getting some information about Andersonville. That should raise some red flags that the community is searching for alternate methods of catering to small businesses and they need a new plan.
People, this is not as complicated as it seems. All we are doing is research. It does not require us to have direct access to politicians. Let's coordinate our efforts, find out some information, talk to some folks, and then report back with what we know. If we can get them to come meet us or go meet them, that would be awesome.
If no one will talk, we poke our heads around and ask some business owners why they chose Andersonville and what the 'hood did to make it a friendly place for business.
All I want to know is some of the things that Andersonville did to succeed. If the Alderman's office doesn't want to talk to us, that's ok. Let's ask their Chamber of Commerce or try to talk to some residents and local business owners that were active in the community, went to several meetings, etc. We can go to a local ward meeting or something and ask some questions. Check out their CAPS meetings and see how they operate. Note the differences and similarities. Maybe they try different things that work.
By comparison, we have to remember that this is a different neighborhood with different problems, layout, etc. However, that doesn't mean that we can't learn something and take it back to our leaders.
I hardly think the "forces working against us" are going to prevent us from doing simple research and asking questions at a Chamber or Rotery Club meeting in Andersonville.
Are Ald. Moore's "hidden powers" going to take away my library card so I can't pull up some local news articles from the Library, prevent me from asking some business organizations and business owners in the community why they chose Andersonville? I think not.
If anyone else is afraid, I'll do it. I have nothing to lose. I'm not from RP, I own no businesses, I have no axe to grind.
Come on! How can we be scared? How many of us walk down Morse or Howard Ave at night? Moore's alleged cronies are way less scary to me than that.
I hear you on planning something like this in a public forum. However, I refuse to picture Ald. Moore's Chief of Staff leaning out of an unmarked white van with one of those satellite dishes with the microphone in it -- listening to everything we say through headphones if we meet at the Heartland Café anymore than I think "powerful" business owners and developers would blackball me like McCarthy.
Come on, man. I have my feelings about Joe, but I doubt he's a politically connected bully that brutally represses all attempts to gather information. I WANT him to know that we are doing this. If he knows, he won't be surprised when we come to him and ask him if any of the things tried in Andersonville will work in RP.
In my experience, whenever rent for retail (or any space for that matter) space is inordinately high; it is because they are trying to discourage certain types of business. Often, when a renter comes along who is deemed to be agreeable, there are exceptions made to accommodate the renter. Sometimes the rent is lowered so long as a long term or extended lease is signed. It’s like a doorman deciding who gets into the club. I am not sure if this is the case with the Gateway but it seems to me that the club is no longer so popular and they are letting anyone in.
Sorry, my bad.
Here's the link. Enjoy!
Andersonville Study of Retail Economics
www.AndersonvilleStudy.com
Thanks!
When DevCorp North and their partners establish the Howard-Paulina Tax Increment Financing (TIF) district, they took 25 acres of Rogers Park, razed it, and established a preserve for chain stores, a sort of "locally-owned business free zone," a kind of anti-small-business incubator.
DevCorp North negotiated with their business partners in Gateway Mall on a list of "Prohibited Uses." Their partnership, Combined Development - Howard, L. L. C. (Limited Liability Company), agreed on a list, and incorporated the list into their company's charter document, which was signed by Kevin O'Neil, then President of DevCorp North and Rudy Mulder. The operating agreement for Gateway Mall specifically prohibits grocery stores, retailers, and restaurants unless they are owned by large national corporations.
(See excerpt below. Read the list carefully. It is a list of PROHIBITED uses, so it has a kind of double negative in it that makes it hard to understand on 1st read).
DevCorp North's operating agreement with their partners in Gateway Mall was obtained from the City of Chicago under the Freedom of Information Act.
Excerpt from
Limited Liability Company Operating Agreement of
Combined-Development - Howard, L. L. C.
December 19, 1996
2.11. LEASES
The Company shall not lease space at the Project to any tenant for the uses set forth on the list attached hereto as Exhibit 5.2. ...
Exhibit 5.2
Prohibited Uses
Liquor Store
Warehouse or Discount Grocery Stores, unless specifically approved
(not to include name brand users - i.e. Marshalls, T.J. Maxx, etc.)
Fast Food, unless specifically approved
(not to include name fast brand fast food restaurants - i.e. McDonalds, Burger King, etc.)
Hugh,
That’s great info. Could you tell me where I can view the entire document? Also, by briefly reviewing the Andersonville Study it sounds like the folks at Civic Economics really have their act together. Has Rogers Park ever had such a study conducted?
For the record, I have owned a small business in RP. I currently am one of the folks running rogerspark.com and have lived her for 17 years.
I opened Rogers Bark Dog Wash and retail store in 2000 at Lunt and Sheridan. It lasted 14 months. It is being reopened in a couple weeks on the corner of Jarvis and Greenview by the woman who was my groomer. I'd be happy to share my experiences with any of you as to dealing with the Ald to why it didn't last. i certainly don't blame the "neighborhood"
To make my point about the fact that I belive the things we all want are already happening just look at Dan Sullivans buildings for example. He owns the building on Lunt and Glenwood...full of Art studios and "ood reneters" He also owns the majority of the corner of Jarvis and Greeniview. Poitin Still Bar is now open (check it out) Rogers Bark is re-opening. Side Project Theatre has moved into the old Big Star space and will be a great new visible presence on that street bring good folks to the area along with all the other businesses there. And yes we will soon have a real restaurant on that corner sometime soon. (more on that later)
Dan is a very hands on proactive landlord and member of our community. He has put his $$ where his mouth is and has the fortunate ability to do so.
Many people I know have tried in vein to buy some of the buildings on Morse Ave in recent past. We can't force current owners to sell ther buildings! That is one of the difficulties. Yes the rents are a bit high, but compare them to many other hoods and you might be suprised. DevCorp can give you all the numbers you want.
i tried to buy Dukes bar(on Glenwood next to Lifeline) and lost the deal for many reasons. Some friends now own it and it is cleaned up nicely. (sure I had different plans for it and it would have been different if not "better" CHECK IT OUT! Lifelong RP folks I might add!
Across from the Heartland is a boutique slip cover shop opening....wish I had the cash to redo a buch of my furniture but I don't. CHECK IT OUT!
Thousands of people showed up for the fourth annual GAAD Art Fair this past weekend. HOPE YOU CHECKED IT OUT!
I know of a few other businesses in the works that i can't talk about......
I am still planning on opening a restaurant in RP (any investors willing to talk?)
How many more examples do you want? The "market is catching up to RP. That is when people start to open these types of places we all desire. No big secret!
In years past RP was known as that funny little Hippy Hood with a very tolerant community with it's fair share of crime/poverty and yes a whole lot of BLACK PEOPLE!
Look at all the other hoods that have prospered recently. Not nearly the conccentration of black people.
We are still a fairly racist city. Rogers Park is unique. 1/3 Black 1/3 White and 1/3 Latino... basically. The sad fact is that that alone has been the reason few people "outside" RP have not invested commercially in RP. No one wants to have that conversation for some reason?
Had Ald Moore listened only to the "Developers" over the years, hell he was anti development in my estimation for many years. The reason being, that he had his base Politically and I think did his best to "preserve" that racial balance by not being too pro development.
Well, the market has cought up to RP and I for one think Joe has done a damn good job of balancing the old base with the new $$ of developers coming into our hood. The fact is many of these developers actually LIVE in RP! and spend considerable $ here supporting many not-for profits and worthy ventures because they are members of our community!
The goal in my eyes is too encourage these "upscale" if you will types of bisinesses so that the millions of dollars spent outside our borders is spent here, without demolishing the "Character" of RP and becoming the truly diverse neighborhood we should be and hopefully will be.
That "Character" has nothing to do with Greystone two flats or 4 plus ones. Split cinder block vs Solid brick. It has to do with the human beings that live here and make this the greatest neighborhood in the city.
Those people are you, me, the homeless,the children,the poor, the rich, the hopeless and the hopeful, the teachers and artists as well as the powers that be!
That's right people.......those powers that be are all of us including The Alderman and DevCorp North!
Get to know them, go to meetings, join groups and start groups. Exclude no one and become familiar with each other in person not just on-line.
If you contine to see Gov. especially local Gov in terms of Us and Them you are lost.
WE ARE THEM AND THEY ARE US!
There may not be any friends in politics, but I would rather be a working neighbor to the POWERS THAT BE than a ranting enemy any day of the week.
You will effect change a whole lot more with a seat at the table!
rant over
Michael K, thanks for your interest.
Limited Liability Company Operating Agreement of Combined Development - Howard, L. L. C.
http://www.forum49.org/docs/CombinedDevelopmentHowardLLCOperatingAgreement.pdf
Food for thought, Charlie.
I think it's probably true that some retail investment avoids RP because of the Hippy Hood reputation and especially because of racism. I think many of us are interested in that conversation...but where to start?
There are lots of people (myself included) who have mentioned the importance of maintaining a diverse community, both recially and financially. Is there a racial distribution and/or median income map for all of Chicago somewhere? The idea of going through census records seems daunting. I am interested to see what kind of diversity still exists in those communities that we seem to want to emulate (Edgewater, Andersonville, etc..) anddetermine whether or not those are goals we would like to see up here.
Charlie used 4+1s to derail a discussion of 2-flats, and he is now using race to distract from DevCorp North and Gateway.
I was actually able to find this map:
http://www.lib.uchicago.edu/e/su/maps/chicityeth2000.jpg
It is hard to define the neighborhoods but I looked at where the parkland (in green) ends as where the bike path ends at Hollywood and you can kind of extapolate from there.
This 2000 census info and I know a lot has changed sout of Devon since then. Areas in white have no majority (more than 50%) population.
Charlie - The people that run DevCorp, the Alderman, etc. have been in power for a long time and we have seen little change. The same people seem to run a lot of the RP organizations. It's a cozy little clique. That's not a bad thing, but they have made little gains in the last 14 years (in my opinion). The current structure is too interconnected with the same people.
I go to community meetings and don't think the ideas and suggestions of the community are taken seriously at all. I understand your pessimism, but I don't think you can fault us for trying to work outside of that.
DevCorp bringing in more public storage and short term contracts for chains that hurt local businesses is not improvement. Whatever they are doing is not working. It's tremendously short-sighted.
CAPS meetings are little more than a joke. However, the efforts James and Tom have made to organize the residents are starting to make a big difference. I, for one, want to see where a little organization can take us.
I am sorry your businesses failed. I understand you have been in the neighborhood longer than most people on this board. However, you have to admit that over the last 10 to 14 years a lot of prominent members of the community have run the same organizations with little results.
I have a lot of questions and I want to help. I want to know if grants are available for rezoning and business studies. We have some top-notch universities around we should consult to see if they can help us conduct a rezoning/small business study to see what works and what doesn't. I want to do a lot of research on these kinds of things to find out what we can do, so we can help our leaders make informed decisions, instead of being told we don’t understand.
Can I single-handedly do this myself? No. However, maybe someone knows a professor at Northwestern or UIC that can direct me to someone who can tell me what I need to do to request such a study, and whether grants are available.
If people want to band together to come up with some new ideas outside the "let me respond to that" channels of local government, I don't see why that can be a bad thing.
The response that small businesses don't want to move to RP because of the black population is absurd. Businesses want to make money. Business owners don't care what color you are, they just want your money.
I don't think "wait another 10-15 years" is an adequate response to that willingness of the community to band together and try to force some change.
It seems to me the crux of your argument is that we don't know what the hell we are talking about and we are wasting our time. That's an attitude I think led RP to where we are now. I'm willing to meet with people to see what we can do. Granted, many people will all want different things. Let's see what we can agree on. I don't doubt that our community leaders want the same things we do: More business, more green space, less crime.
Let's see if we can push them to try some different approaches. Let's see what we can do to help. Some of us are going to meet tomorrow. I hope to see you there.
> ... those powers that be are ... DevCorp North ...Get to know them ... THEY ARE US!
Working with DevCorp North is not possible. No one gets a seat at the table in planning the future of our neighborhood based on a decade of lies, backroom deals with real estate developers, and fraud.
Where on DevCorp North's website do they admit to being part owners of one of the most valuable parcels of commercial property in our neighborhood, the same web site that solicits money from me and my neighbors, neighbors who have far fewer resources than DevCorp North?
Where on the signage of Gateway Mall does it say, "Brought to you by DevCorp North?"
Most importantly, where is Gateway in DevCorp North's public financial disclosures, public disclosures used by DevCorp North to secure grants?
DevCorp North is nothing more than the not-for-profit, tax-exempt front for Moore's ward organization. At times DevCorp North pretends to be a chamber of commerce and at other times pretends to be a community group. DevCorp North serves Moore by supplying testimony and letters of support. DevCorp North goes downtown and speaks for us. They are not us.
Clean up your act before you stump for new members. Start by re-filing your financial disclosures from 1996 on. No more back-room deals. No more off-the-books partnerships with real estate developers. Be honest with who and what you are and stop trying to deceive me and my neighbors. We've had enough.
I was raised to judge people by their actions. DevCorp North lies on their financial disclosures, solicits funds under false pretenses, pays workers in food stamps, lobbies for tax breaks for corporations, helps the rich get richer, busts union jobs, decimates local businesses, and raises property taxes on homeowners. It's nothing I would choose to get involved in.
Hugh said:
"Working with DevCorp North is not possible."
So what were you doing at the Howard/Morse Visioning meeting we both attended Hugh? Were you there working against them? They invited the community and you showed up. Sounds like working together to me.
I only attended one. Did you attend all three?
Hire a lawyer and challange their legal status if you think they are doing something wrong.
Dan2
I was in no way attempting to say you did not know what you were doing. I did not mean to give you or anybody else that opinion. I applaud everybody's enthusiasm, really I do.
I was just offering my perspective of the neighborhood.
Just because I don't think going to Ald. Smith's office will produce much in the way of results does not mean i don't think you should do it. I was just saying that i believe that DevCorp and Ald Moore have been and are taking lots of cues from many other neighborhoods in the city.
Then again what the hell do I know.
Citizen participation is great and I admire everyones enthusiasm.
For what it's worth Joe fought city hall for years and still does a bit of it. However I think once he started playing the game a little more with Da Mayor things started getting better in RP.
Same goes for the rest of us in dealing with Joe.
Dear dan2,
You said:
>The response that small businesses don't want to move to RP because of the black population is absurd. Businesses want to make money. Business owners don't care what color you are, they just want your money.
I agree with you totally about what businesses want - money is the thing. Some national retailers have caught up with the notion that all our money is the same color and they now aggresively market to afro-americans and latinos.
But race and wealth are all bound up together in this country. I'm sure that must have some impact on how small businesses assess their possible risk/gain. I think to ignore that these perceptions (which may or may not have roots in actual dollars and cents facts), don't sway investors is to ignore an important part of the case anyone in RP charged with business development has to make - in short, there's money here and we're ready to spend it.
As for the Dominicks at Howard, it's classic ghetto retail writ large. Shittier products, less selection, higher prices. What a disgrace.
One last word on Dominick's. It is a shame because they have the capacity to have a HUGE selection of products with widely varying prices so that everyone can get what they want. Instead, they carry staples that are of questionable quality with high prices and stock perishables that are mostly store brands that they get for next to nothing. It seems they are waiting for more money to move to the neighborhood. In the meantime, those of us who are willing to spend our money on high quality products (Sorry, but I once worked in a 4 star restaurant and it made me a food snob) are finding other places to get our goods. Even if they got their act together I doubt I will ever shop there again. This all leads to money leaving the community. DevCorp North's own website has a presentation to attract retailers that points out that most of the money spent by residents is not in this community. I know that a lot of folks here don't trust them but these numbers seem right to me:
http://devcorpnorth.org/economic_development/bizzops/index.html
Your right Michael K
DevCorp North's own website has a presentation to attract retailers that points out that most of the money spent by residents is not in this community. I know that a lot of folks here don't trust them but these numbers seem right to me:
That is exactly what I am trying to point out. They know it and are attempting to do something about it. Believe it or not DevCorp does listen to people in this Ward. No one person or group is always right always sucessful, but damn if we are not ALL trying.
Don't apologize for your shopping trends. You are clearly in the majority.
I do 80% of my grocery shopping at Wild Oats in Evanston.
Charlie -- contact me at p.vangiessen@comcast.net re your restaurant.
Michael K - I know you use the RP Fruit Market, have you discover the Devon Market on Devon at Greenview? Good products at good prices. Try it!
Carol,
Thanks for the tip. I have been there a few times while housesitting for friends who live much further south on Newgard but it is hard for me to get to since I do not have a car and getting a grocery cart up and down the stairs is a little treacherous. I have been venturing into the Indian shops on weekends and trying out different things on weekends with mixed results. Most things that I found disagreeable were probably due to my ignorance of proper preparation or having a different palate.
There is what looks like a Kosher meat shop on Clark that I have been meaning to visit but I never think of it except when I am out walking my dog. Does anyone know if it is any good or if they even do retail sales?
Also, since it appears that we have a group here that seems to be looking to alternatives to national chains, this site might be of interest:
FuckCorporateGroceries.net
Corporations are run by people and they either serve people and survive or they die. They are not some abstract, alien entities that eat your children and kidnap you if you're not paying attention (unless we are talking about a monopoly situation like utilities -- I'll save the lecture on how government has created monopolies that guarantee high prices for another time). Further, because we live in a (largely) free market society we have something called competition and when those "evil" corporations don't serve their market's needs, others rise to fill the need/demand. Walmart, usually denounced as the most evil of evil, has done more good for low income people than any 10 government programs I can think of by offering low cost goods that many would not be able to otherwise afford. Food has become less expensive to us all because of the likes of Walmart. Oh, look, people want low-cost goods -- hello Dollars stores, many of which are franchised and owned by "small business people." Exxon, that evil oil company, has gained efficiencies that has kept gas prices relatively low on an inflation-adjusted basis -- including our recent spike (and created massive shareholder value that has enriched millions of regular folks' lives). We pay less for gasoline in this country than anywhere else. Who does this benefit the most? Lower income folks. Go to Holland, France, etc. and you will see that our underclass has it way better than the underclasses elsewhere (they just do a better job of hiding the underclass in Europe).
Smart small businesses can survive and thrive in a competitive environment, just like big business must be smart to survive (bullying tactics only carry any business so far). Women & Children First, in Andersonville, has done just fine. Otoh, B&N and Borders have done more to increase book sales than any 500 indie stores -- because they are more welcoming to average folks than the old snooty elitist bookstores of yesteryear (one of which I used to work in). B&N and Borders have lousy inventory? You bet. Hello Amazon where you can buy almost any book, any time -- and usually at a nice discount! Oh, that's right -- Amazon is a corporation. Let's destroy and ban it.
A vibrant community will have businesses that offer residents choices from chains to small shops. And the businesses that serve communities will change as the communities' needs and wants change. It is the rare business (small or big) that lasts for decades and decades. Kind of like people. We are born, we live, we die. Companies, which are simply systems for human activity, also are born, live, and usually die (or radically change).
For those paying attention, grocery chains are having a very tough time of it across the country. Seems that most people either want to shop at Walmart or Whole Foods or Trader Joes or local delis, etc. They're not so keen on Safeway et al anymore. Dominicks isn't sad in my view. As an organization it didn't see the changes in consumer buying and reinvent itself so it's now in the process of dying. 20 years ago I was stuck with Safeway; there was virtually no alternative. Now I can swing by Target for cheap household stuff, hit Whole Foods for all the foods they have that I love, cruise to Trader Joes to see what's good and on sale, and then stop by Bornhoffens for some excellent steak. Bugs me that I have to get in my car to do this given that I live in a big city but at least I have choices.
I am very big on supporting local business but the reality is that I won't be inconvenienced nor will I pay more unless I'm getting something better. And that is simply human behavior for most people -- we act in our own self-interest and that's not necessarily bad. Do I frequent any of the local pet shops -- past or present -- from Evanston to Wilson? No. And chances are I won't. I can order dog food online, get it within a week, and still pay less, even with shipping charges. Plus, that nice UPS man delivers it to my door and I don't have to lug 40 lb bags from the car. I feel bad that Famous Fidos is gone and that Gloria continues to have a rough time of it and that Charlie's shop didn't make it. But I'm not running a chartity anymore than any business owner runs their life as a charity.
I will be the biggest supporter of businesses in RP one has ever seen -- as soon as RP has businesses that serve my needs. I love Grande Sushi. Yes, it's more expensive than some other places but I am thrilled to have a great Sushi place in the 'hood so I dine there at least once or twice a week. I'd practically kill for an office supply store that I could walk to (there are quite a few home-office people in the 'hood). Please, god (even though I'm agnostic), could I have more lunch options? There are lots of businesses that just aren't here that, I think, people would frequent. What needs to be communicated to business -- small or large -- is the demographics of the community, with guidance on where x type of business has best chance for success (taking into consideration parking, through traffic, residents, etc.). It may make very good sense for DevCorp to try to sell the Gap on Gateway but not Gethsemane. Conversely, what Morse needs are shops that will bring foot traffic (of the good kind) which are probably small businesses such as salons, delis, an anchor type business like Swedish bakery, and so on. Right now a goodly number of the businesses in RP serve the lower income segments -- those who largely have to walk. The challenge is to create a safe environment so that those with the income will make the walk to destination businesses instead of doing as most of us do -- get in our car and head out or hop online.
We live in a competitive world, and we all benefit from that. But there are local opportunities. Abt is a great example of a small local business literally outselling the big chains (such as Best Buy and Circuit City). They figured out a strategy to success. While I want our elected officials to help bring business to RP, business (small or large) is also responsible for its success by competing. We need to encourage business by making the environment friendly to them but it's up to them to give us what we just can't live without.
I wish a good breakfast/lunch place would go in. I've been scouring the Northside even since I moved up here for a decent place for brunch (um, sorry Heartland and Morseland, I just don't think the food is up to snuff - you both could start improving though by not cutting up fruit on the board you also use for raw onions...)
My personal preference would be for a place like M.Henry or Tweet, but I would be almost as happy to see an Ann Sathers or an Original Pancake house.
And college students LOVE to go out to breakfast the morning after. Maybe I should write this business plan myself...
I never claimed that corporations are evil although that site seems to think so. I was just passing along some different stores that I thought people might be interested in. I think I mentioned before that I used to live near a Dominick's that I was quite happy to shop at but this one is crappy.
Please don't try and defend Dominick's by telling me how great WalMart is. I grew up in a small town and our small downtown dried up when the WalMart opened up a few miles down the road. The K-Mart was there for years and never caused such problems. Target opened and no big changes but as soon as the Super Wal-Mart opened up even the K-Mart folded. And don't even get me started on Exxon. Wait until you get your heating bill this year and tell me how wonderful they are. As far as Europe "hiding" it's underprivileged, I think you'll find they are for the most part much better served by social programs and strong unions.
The businesses that have gone under due to Walmart went under because the folks liked Walmart better. In short, the customer will decide what businesses get their business. Walmart isn't to blame. Their customers are to blame -- if we are apportioning blame.
As for the underclass in Europe, I'm sure my husband, born, bred, and raised in the Netherlands (in fact, a Dutch citizen who reads the European press almost every week -- in Dutch and sometimes German) would love to hear you provide detail about the social programs western Europe offers its underclass. He'd probably also be happy to take you on a tour of Dutch shantytowns throughout the country during our next visit. Your trek through the tennement houseboats, where many of these people are now being housed, will surely be lovely. There is a difference between a stated social program and how people actually live.
And I suppose we do not have such places in the US? Perhaps you might like to visit a few places in Kentucky or maybe just the west side or a few parks nearby?
In any case, I believe the disussion was about whether or not WalMart does a disservice to the communities it serves and they do. By taking money out of the community and often turning thriving main streets into ghost towns. Do I think that in a free market that everyone has the right to compete? Sure. But you cannot compete with a company that preys upon the poor by employing them at sub-standard wages, prohibiting the formation of unions, and taking profits out of the community to disperse to investors rather than allowing that money, were it spent at a locally owned shop, to be recirculated in the local economy. What happened to the rights of the local business? They do not buy in such large quantities as WalMart and thus are not entitled to bulk discounts.Why not let everyone purchase those products at the same price? That would be fair competition.
I also think that members of the community elect officials to look out for the best interest of the residents of that community. As such, they are charged with protecting the interest of the already exisiting businesses. Allowing a seasonal Halloween store to take up residence a few blocks from a buisiness that already provides such a service to the community is not only contrary to that responsibility, it is irresponsible and borders on being criminal.
I’m inclined to agree with Michael K. on Europe in general, although the definitions and dynamics of the "underclass" are so different in France and Holland (Germany etc.) than they are in the U.S., that it is rather difficult to compare.
For all the citizens of these countries, there are definitely a better range of direct social benefits managed by the state - health, education, housing, unemployment benefits, etc., although there are debates about the comparative quality of these benefits, compared to the U.S. (The "America has the best quality healthcare in the world" argument - it's all about how you define it). It would be hard to deny that many of the services provided by the state in Europe are of very good quality (compare the condition of the national roads in France with ours, for example). On the other hand, I would not want to live in a Paris housing project – don’t kid yourself that theirs are better.
There are comparative studies that attempt to demonstrate that if you factor in all the things that Americans pay the private sector for that a French person does not - health care, higher education - Americans actually pay a higher level of "tax" than a French person with equivalent income does. If you are a middle class, middle ability, middle ambitious person, (with a job) Western Europe is pretty good. And most people there are that.
They also have much wider union participation which gives workers a certain amount of wage, benefit and job protection. It's not perfect, companies still restructure and workers still lose their jobs, but for the most part employers have to play ball. Even if you aren’t in a union, the way a lot of white collar work is contracted affords more security than here.
But, they also have higher unemployment, especially in certain regions, issues around growth etc. etc. You can read about that in the newspaper any day of the week.
Some of the other problems people face are more subtle, but again I think it's hard to make the argument that the U.S. is better - as always, it depends on "better for whom?" There is definitely less career mobility in Europe and it is much harder to invent yourself professionally. There are a number of reasons why – there are more barriers to entry rooted in how qualifications are assessed, especially educational achievement, high unemployment which dis-incents people from taking risks, issues of class...many others.
It is a tough place for the late bloomer. In France and Germany (I can’t speak to Holland, but I would be surprised if it weren’t similar) educational achievement is expressed by tests from a pretty young age. You could be the brightest, most creative kid in the room, but if you can’t perform in the ways expected of you...Most people do pass the tests that are put in front of them – the primary and secondary educational system on the whole is better than the U.S., by just about anyone’s yardstick. The tests can be pretty sophisticated – it’s not multiple choice – look at what a French kid has to do to get a high school diploma, it’s impressive. And since the social services are universal and better integrated, many problems tend to be caught early before they really do damage (look at how many three year olds wear glasses for example).
People are channeled on career paths pretty early based on this way of doing things, they start to specialize early, which is fine for a lot of people, even most people. But, it's not fine for everyone and if you miss the bus, there are not many more coming after that. The path you are put on determines which tests and opportunities you are encouraged (or allowed) to subsequently take, and so it goes. Getting into medical school is a "contest" literally; in France the word for the entry test is the word that means contest – score highest on the test, you win, you don't you lose. There are no gap programs for those who were literature majors but then at age 29 decide they want to become doctors. The state is paying, needs to be efficient and therefore does not have time to muck around waiting for you to get your act together. Yes, there are private schools, but for most careers it is the state schools that count.
This same situation plays out in a number of other arenas where the state is providing the benefit - the needs of minorities (in the general sense) are often underserved. They underserved are here too, but in different ways and for different reasons.
It reminds be of the time I was discussing this with an old boyfriend, a Swedish guy who was studying in the U.S. at a very expensive private university (on the Swedish dime, no less), and I told him that I thought living in Sweden was sort of like living in your parent's house forever - they might be really nice parents, but you'd still probably itch to leave home. He told me I was right, but that he liked it that way. Okay, but he still had to come to the U.S. to get the kind of dynamic education not available in Sweden...Okay, well why should he care if the state is paying…suffice to say we agreed to agree AND disagree, sort of.
It’s a very tough call – which system is better? The question takes on a special immediacy when you can actually choose between the two. My husband and I are both EU citizens (he was born there and I was born here) and we go around and around about the pros and cons. What are you willing to give up? What do you have to gain? It’s really difficult. There are a LOT of dimensions to it.
Now, there is an underclass in Europe that I really agree is hidden (unless you wear a headscarf to school or blow up a bus). But that particular discussion of immigration is a topic for another day.
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