You people have absolutely no heart what so ever. I can't believe that you would actually look at a picture of a mother of a child who has just been murdered and have such ridiculous comments.
Clive was a very good person, I know because I had the pleasure of spending several years of his life with him. He was a really smart young man who expressed passion for way more out of life than you all may think.
He had dreams and wanted a bright future, just like everybody else, but unfortunately he just like many other kids had friends and hung around with the wrong crowd, but who are you to say that "it's good that he's gone" just because in his younger years he made some mistakes and may not have always done what "society" expects in a man no human being on this earth is perfect, so stop it sweetie.
It's really sad and pathetic that you can sit here and say anything in regards to the vigil that was held for Clive Flowers or his mother. Don't flatter yourself by thinking "oh well, my kid will never do things that he/she shouldn't" because more than likely your kids will get into a lot more than you hope and/or think.
So think for a second and understand that you can never blame a child's mother and the way your image of her raising him as the reason why her son is dead today.
And you can't blame Clive, because even-though he may not have been your ideal son, understand that he may have had problems in his life and made some bad choices (just like others and maybe (most likely) even some of you who have such close-minded opinions about his murder) but NO ONE deserves to be murdered.
I love Clive because of the person he was and will always be in my heart and in my opinion his mother was one of the best because she never gave up on him and she always tried to direct him on the right path. I personally would like to say R.I.P to my dear friend Clive Flowers.
I love you more than you know, and I will always remember you.
Sincerely laToya
25 comments:
I agree with laToya- things are not so black and white. People are full of contradictions and inconsitencies. We are all connected, and Clyde may have put some good things into this world. He might have done some more good too if he had had a chance. Everyone deserves life and his was taken. Regardless of how imperfect he was, this is painful and sad for his family and anyone who cared for him.
This doesn't mean I condone gangbanging or criminal behavior- but I don't wish them dead. Anyone who does should take a good look at themselves in my opinion.
laToya- please know that not everyone around here is without compassion for your loss.
Craig says in an earlier blog:
"Outside of Julie and I, none of the other so called leaders reached out and talked or shook the hands of the young gang members in attendance last night. There were around a dozen of them, maybe more."
Oh Craig this makes me want to puke. Who do you think you are? Roger Parks version of Geraldo Rivera?
Rather than shaking these "young gang members" hands, you should be ringing their necks. Who will be next to get shot when they decide to retaliate for their friend's death? Next time maybe it won't be some gang member taking a bullet, but some child, or mother, or grandfather.
In a couple of hours their tears will be dry, they'll all be out on the street looking for their next high. And you, by giving comfort to them, are just enabling them to continue on.
You've given this kid his 15 minutes of fame. Stop the soap opera now.
And by the way, LaToya's original post didn't seem as nearly dramatic until you beefed it up with quotes and italics.
To LaToya, this is life's lessons learned...the hard way.
So here's a cue from Toto. When I hear people calling their own children shithead or motherfucker or other nasty names I cringe. Why? because I know that's what they will eventually become.
Make the hard choice and get the drugs and the liquor out of your house. Don't let your children see you or other responsible adults drunk, hungover or stoned.
Turn off the TV, Video games and degrading rap music and read or talk to your children. Be the boss, even when its not convenient to you. And remember, there are plenty of hard working African American people, who have come from disadvantaged backgrounds and have succeeded in life. And they succeed in life because they make good choices. Start making good choices now. There are lots of social service out there to help you.
Remember the golden rule: What goes around comes around. And a sure guarantee of continuing poverty, drug abuse and death is babies having babies.
"What goes around comes around" is a modified karma wheel, not the golden rule. The Golden Rule is "Do unto others as you would have them do unto you." The difference is that you're not entitled to retaliate against people, even when they deserve it. Under the Golden Rule, compassion is a higher value than what mortals perceive as justice. God may mete out cosmic justice, but our role as mortals is to be compassionate to one another.
I'm just saying.
Gee killcatt, you sound just like Bill Cosby, among, too few others out there! Well stated. Now, let's wait for the answers to your last 3 questions!
killcatt said: "At one time blacks were treated unfairly and downtrodden by whites, but that was 50 years ago."
Into the 1990's, crack cocaine, a substance used primarily by Blacks, drew prison terms many times more severe than powder cocaine, a substance used primarily by Whites. Blacks convicted under those laws are still in prison. Whites convicted under those laws are not. The children of these people, and the neighborhoods where they live, either have the benefit of their parenting, or not. (And a present though flawed parent is far more likely to produce a successful child than an absent parent.) Whites got two years, Blacks got twenty, which they are still serving at $60,000 per year in tax burden. When you see an unruly teenager in Rogers Park, consider the possibility that the father was absent due to bad drug policy, not mere laziness.
At all levels of the criminal justice system, the lightness of your skin is statistically correlated with leniency. The darker you are, the more likely you are to be stopped, searched, arrested, jailed, charged, tried, convicted, and sentenced to longer prison terms. All of this is true, even when the statistics are normalized for severity of the crime.
That last paragraph might not be clear, so I'll turn it the other way. Skip this paragraph if you get it already. If you're white, you're more likely not to get stopped by the police. If you do get stopped, being white means you're less likely to be searched. If you get stopped, being white also means you're less likely to be arrested. If you are arrested, being white means you're more likely to be bailed rather than jailed. If you are arrested, being white means they are more likely not to charge you with a crime. If you are charged with a crime, being white means they are more likely to drop the charges. If you are charged, being white means that the charges are likely to be under a less severe statute. If the charges are not dropped, being white means you are more likely to be found innocent. If you are convicted of the crime, being white means your sentence will be less severe than those handed down to darker-skinned people. In each case, this is true even when the crime alleged is the same among blacks, browns, and whites.
The law school I attended systematically excluded blacks until the 1970's - 1978, I believe. A graduate of that law school who was age 25 in 1978 would be 53 years old today. It's a fair inference that, if that law school and others like it had stopped the systematic and overt (not tacit) discrimination earlier than 1978, there would be more black lawyers ages 53 and up today. Children of 53-year-old lawyers might be teenagers today.
Official Mormon church doctrine, preached and taught until the 1970's, was that Blacks were an inferior form of organism. Today, Utah has the smallest number of Black residents of any state in the country.
Public schools are funded through taxes on real estate. Real estate is the least mobile and least accessible form of wealth. While there have been improvements in some places, most blacks live in poor neighborhoods where the per-pupil funding is far below the per-pupil funding in white neighborhoods. Lack of quality education leads to fewer opportunities later. "Later" in this case means at age 18, when one might consider getting an undergraduate education, joining a union, or getting a job with long-term prospects. Funding schools through a state-wide income tax, distributed on a per-pupil basis, would eliminate this racial legacy.
If you want me to go on, I can.
Jim Crow laws are gone. Institutional racism is not.
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I won't make excuses for people who are bad, be they black, white, hispanic or mixed race. I hold myself to high standards of public repect and dignity and I expect the same from my neighbors no matter what race they come from. I recongnize the need for affirmative action and am a strong supporter of it. I belive strongly in giving people from a lower economic strata a chance at a good life. The cost of incarceration far exceeds the cost of a good education.
But here's the rub. In nearly no other country in the world do people educate their children up to age 18. In Europe if you don't cut the grade at 16 you're out luck. No other country has a system of publicly funded trade schools, community colleges, colleges and universities like we have in the US. And there's aid out there and loans.
In the US minority kids drop out of school voluntarily at an astonishingly high rate. If white people where forcing black kids out of school involunarily we'd have reason to shout. Minority tell their successful friends to stop acting so "white". Gosh if a white person did that, it would be cause for a riot.
What's wrong with the community who supports these kids asking the kids and their families to pull their weight in getting educated, acting with respect. Is it too much to expect these people to get their kids ready for bed at a decent hour so they're ready to go to school and learn in the morning?
I pay a lot of taxes. I give to charity. I particpate in community volunteer activies. I treat people with regard and respect. I'm not willing to give slackers a pass. Its a mean, hard world out there. And most minorities make it. However slimy trash no matter what color have to wake up and their liberal enablers need to do the same.
Lastly, Craig. Next time you take pictures of your local drug cartel and start moaning about the drug situation in RP, just remember your the one giving comfort and support.
Just imagine if you had caught a picture of Joe Moore out shaking hands with the friends and family of Clive and not you. You would have had a field day and your chorus of whiners would be whining to high heavens about it too.
Toto said: "In nearly no other country in the world do people educate their children up to age 18. In Europe if you don't cut the grade at 16 you're out luck."
If the United States actually provided an education to every kid through age 16, we wouldn't be having this conversation. Germany also has universal health care, and government-funded childcare for everyone starting at age two or three. And paid maternity leave of a year or more. And on and on.
Contrary to your assertion, the kids who are culled from German public schools at age 16 are sent into publicly-funded occupational training and subsidized, paid internships. You're not "out of luck," you just are trained to be a carpenter or a mechanic instead of a doctor or an engineer. If you get accepted, university tuition in Germany for the 1991-1992 academic year was $40. Not $40K, $40 (DM 60). It's gone up a little since then and it's in euros now, but it's still pocket change compared to the US.
The riots in France and the law that that's all about show that maybe the European systems have some flaws or limits too. But the idea that Europeans are somehow tougher on kids and make them perform or get packing is just completely wrong. I don't know that I'd want to operate a business in Europe, but it's WAY better to be a poor child there than it is here. Their social programs start at birth, and their life course is radically different. There haven't been kids (or parents) without health insurance in Europe for decades. They have single-digit illiteracy rates. Our literacy standards are lower in the US, and we still have double- digit functional illiteracy. The last report on illiteracy I saw had an asterisk next to Iceland, indicating that they were rated at 99% on general principles, but the test had actually failed to locate even a single person who was functionally illiterate on the high, European standards. The United States infant mortality rate is appalling. I found one article that explained that, although the US and Cuba have the same statistical rate, the US is actually marginally better. Since when are we on a par with Cuba? Point is, we're not even CLOSE to the rates of Western Europe. Japan's rate is half that of the US.
The US is too harsh on kids, not too lenient. You're twelve years old. Lost in a 35-child classroom? Sorry, buck up. Parents whacked out on drugs? Better deal with it. Obese and diabetic? Not my problem to help you. Curious about sex? Sorry, can't talk about it. Being offered drugs? All I can tell you is "just say no." Wish you had an after-school program to attend? Fund it yourself.
One of our cultural myths is that what doesn't kill you only makes you stronger. It's not that simple. True, a kid that single-handedly sorts out everything on their own will be one hell of a tough, resourceful adult. But leaving so many kids to find their own way through means that a lot of them grow up to be adults that are so beaten down and have faced so many failures that it's all they know to expect from life. If the power structures don't offer them support as children, it's completely unreasonable for us to expect that they'll suddenly think that mainstream society is a great thing when they turn 18 (or 16, whatever).
We have to have the grace to give them a stake in society before they're old enough to earn it on their own. That's what's meant when people say things like "healthcare is a fundamental human right," or when they object to warrantless random searches in schools with mandatory attendance. The lesson is that kids are not safe, and that they are not valued.
I once heard an interview with a priest who helped troubled teens. The interviewer complimented him for giving the teens "a second chance." His response was, "they're kids - when did they have their first chance?"
If we let kids down, a lot of them fail. It's the adult responsibility to raise them right. We aren't holding up our end of the bargain. Seriously, a 16-year-old is almost entirely a function of other people's choices.
But I'm sure the beatings will continue until morale improves.
Pppplllllttttttt. (raspberry)
Let's have a society where no one has to take personal responsibilty for their lives. Where if anyone who has any strikes against them will be given a free ride. Lets have expectations low enough to match their poor self-esteem.
Let's excuse people for selling their brother's and sisters into the slavery of drugs.
Let's excuse people for having no control of their sexual urges and that they molest children.
Let's excuse people for being lazy, and drugged up, and out of control.
I work everyday with people of african American and hispanic decent. Many of them came from disadvantaged backgrounds. And you know what? There making it. Just like me. And you know what, their tired of these people too.
I went to school with 45 kids per class in the 60s. I wore hand me downs from family and strangers. I had a dad who was on the road away from his family 5 days out of the week working to support his family. And when my parents had difficult times in their lives they didn't take it out on their children.
But boo hoo for you. Children in schools should have the right not to have their lockers searched. Let's give them the freedom to have guns and knives and drugs in school. Maybe they won't drop out if their stash and weapons are handy?
Don't dream that Europe is the wonderful land where all is good and none is bad. There just better at sweeping it under the rug. Read this week's New Yorker's article about the Dutch. It's on line.
It's so easy to blame "society" as the root of people's problems. Oh gosh, golly, I don't have to be responsible because it's society's fault. I can drive drunk, I can shoot people, I can rob and thieve, I can molest. It's society's fault I'm like this.
It's society's fault when I hear mother's pushing baby stroller's and calling their children "mother fuckers". It's society's fault for everything.
And for the good people, who raise their kids well, go to work, pay their taxes, volunteer, you'd like us to believe we're the reason our society is such a mess!
I don't buy it.
Toto said: "In Europe if you don't cut the grade at 16 you're out [of] luck." But then Toto also said: "Don't dream that Europe is the wonderful land where all is good and none is bad." Enough said.
Toto said: "I had a dad who was on the road away from his family 5 days out of the week working to support his family. And when my parents had difficult times in their lives they didn't take it out on their children."
By your description, you grew up with a lot more than a lot of kids around here. You had two active parents who stayed involved. Your dad had the health and diligence to keep himself employed, and still made it home two days a week. There was someone else there to take care of the kids the rest of the time (presumably your mom). And your parents had some basic social skills and sense of how to be good parents. If only every kid had this much going for them.
You complain about those parents you see mistreating their children in the street. That bothers me too. But then you argue that we should blame children for misbehaving. These kids aren't even really misbehaving - they're doing what they were told by their parents to do.
I agree that there is a lot of shitty parenting going on around here. I disagree that we should blame the kids for their parents' failings.
Toto said (sarcastically): "Let's excuse people for selling their brother's and sisters into the slavery of drugs. ... Let's excuse people for having no control of their sexual urges and that they molest children. ... Let's excuse people for being lazy, and drugged up, and out of control. ... Let's give them the freedom to have guns and knives and drugs in school."
Where did anyone say we should ignore child molesters? Nobody said that. It's easy to make up things and then fight the straw man. It's a lot harder to separate out the parents who are hopeless from the parents who just need guidance. It's hard work to tolerate the antics of children long enough to teach them how to behave, especially when there were other adults who were responsible for that, but dropped the ball.
But what you're saying is that, if parents drop the ball, no one else should try to help the kids. We should just hold the kids responsible. If we say the kids deserve a chance to learn how to behave before we blame them for failing, you think we're coddling them.
People have had to tolerate the antics of other people's children ever since there were children. It's part of being social animals. Each of us got the benefit of that when we were young, and we owe it to the next crop of children. Sometimes the right thing to do involves hard work, expense, and frustration. Sorry.
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What's wrong with holding people to a level of responsibilty?
Compassion is a beautiful thing. But like every thing in life, too much of a good thing can turn bad. I will not allow my compassion for people to become an excuse for behaviour that's out of norm for society. Nothing infuriates me more in life than when my good nature is abused. This is especially so when people are using the system and then blaming their problems on society when the outcome is not good. If we tiptoe around people and don't tell them that their behaviour is wrong because we don't want to seem like we're not compassionate enough, where does it end?
Just because someone is poor is no excuse for irresponsible behaviour. Where does toleration of bad behaviour stop? According to you, Tom, let's not search the lockers of school children for guns, knives and drugs. We should tolerate their little "antics".
Everyone should help children, especially those where parents are failures. But if you're always willing to give them a pass on bad behaviour, when will they ever learn? Perhaps we should give the killers of the two girls down in Englewood this past month another chance? I don't think so. I have compassion for the girls' families. I have nothing but disdain for their killers.
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Toto said: "What's wrong with holding people to a level of responsibilty?"
Again, the strawman argument. No one is saying that there shouldn't be any responsibility. In fact, I'm saying there should be. What I find objectionable is holding children responsible at adult standards, while holding adults to minimal standards, or none.
Maybe our disconnect is a matter of emphasis. Earlier, you gave your credentials with, "I pay a lot of taxes. I give to charity. I particpate in community volunteer activies. I treat people with regard and respect. I'm not willing to give slackers a pass."
When I talk with people who work with at-risk youth, they don't say the things you're saying. The message I get from people on the ground is more like, "These kids have to navigate through so much that it's amazing they don't screw up more often." Even cops, in my experience, will say first that sometimes kids do cross the line and have to be locked up, but once you agree with that, they'll acknowledge that the kids aren't the source of the problem. Since the kids aren't the source of the problem, attacking them won't solve it. The people I've heard your arguments from in the past are either people of good will who don't understand how complex and deep-rooted the problems are, or nasty people using fears about crime and poverty as a pretext for something else. In the absence of any other information, I've been assuming you're in the first category.
But maybe you're the one guy in the trenches who has the transformative idea that will break through to the new level. Do you have experience helping at-risk youth? Maybe you're already on your Local School Council, holding school administrators responsible. Maybe you're working on prison reform, to provide rehabilitation and counseling programs. Maybe you're actively involved in other ways?
I know you want to hold kids responsible. How are you holding adults responsible?
I just caught myself in a logical fallacy, spawned from my frustration. Whether killcatt personally and actively holds adults responsible isn't really the crucial question. We're talking policy issues, so if a particular individual's behavior doesn't match good policy, that doesn't mean the policy is bad.
The crucial issue in this debate is that I see no good reason for a policy of putting more pressure on at-risk kids, which killcatt seems to be promoting. Instead, I see good reason for putting more pressure on adults who have made commitments but aren't keeping them: parents, school administrators, politicians, people who don't vote, and yes, among others, adults in the community in general. By pressure, I mean both increased effective support, and punishment when necessary.
For example, increased funding for substance abuse counselling, backed up by specialized drug courts, is both extremely financially efficient, and effective. That funding was threatened this year in Cook County, to the detriment of all of us, kids especially. That should have brought an earthquake of outrage. It didn't.
The disconnect I have with killcatt is not so much what he promotes, it's what's absent from his arguments. Okay, so like you say, we punish kids who misbehave ... where's all the rest of the stuff we need to do for them?
Arrgh. I made another mistake, in using "punishment" under one definition, then redefining it another way. Anyway, I think my meaning is probably clear enough if you don't deliberately try to misread it.
Last I heard, pros used more than one shot. For example, the SAS (British elite commandos) use two-shot groups, sometimes more than one group per person, depending on the circumstances. And the Mafia routine was/is to down the target with something (bullet, club, whatever) then put a single small caliber in the skull. A little .22 or .25 will bounce around and do more damage reliably, whereas a larger caliber just passes out the other side and is more likely not to finish the job. The guy who got shot on Morse took a point-blank round to the skull, but I heard he lived. I can't remember how many veterans I've met over the years who are carrying shrapnel. Dozens. One guy who always wore a bicycle helmet because he only had half a skull.
It's surprisingly hard to kill people sometimes, especially if you're nervous, hurried, and pumped up on substances. A pro would take the time to make sure the job was complete. Not that a real pro is likely to be interested in this level of dispute.
No real pros here, just loser street punks.
Toto sez: How wonderful. Four bullets when flying and one was a hit. Tell me Julie and Tom would you still feel so warm and fuzzy about these gang bangers if one or two of the stray bullets had taken someone else out?
Perhaps you should take this poor misguided youth into your home. Cradle him with love and affection.
And while you're at it, don't hold him responsible for any of his actions.
Who knows to whom the next prayer circle tolls.
Toto sez: How wonderful. Four bullets out of five went flying. Tell me Julie and Tom would you still feel so warm and fuzzy about these gang bangers if one or two of the stray bullets had taken someone else out?
Perhaps you should take this poor misguided youth into your home. Cradle him with love and affection.
And while you're at it, don't hold him responsible for any of his actions.
And Tom while you ponder for us the methodologies of hit squad just remember that quantity eventually gets the job done. My former IRA friends tell me so.
Who knows for whom the next prayer circle tolls.
Toto sez: How wonderful. Four bullets out of five went flying. Tell me Julie and Tom would you still feel so warm and fuzzy about these gang bangers if one or two of the stray bullets had taken someone else out?
Perhaps you should take this poor misguided youth into your home. Cradle him with love and affection.
And while you're at it, don't hold him responsible for any of his actions.
And Tom while you ponder for us the methodologies of hit squad just remember that quantity eventually gets the job done. So Tom, why don’t you take the young man out for some target practice to sharpen his skills, and Julie do something with his wardrobe because his colors are clashing.
Toto and Alderman Moore sound one and the same.....>" I hold myself to high standards of public repect and dignity
Toto said, "...would you still feel so warm and fuzzy about these gang bangers if one or two of the stray bullets had taken someone else out?"
Poor Toto. Having run out of real arguments, he's left grasping in the dark for something negative but vacuous to say. Remember the stunning reversal on how great Europe is? (see above) And then there's all that experience he has on the ground working with kids ... that disappeared under scrutiny. (see above again)
Poor Toto. There's no place like home. Go there...
The problem is too big for any one person to expect to fix. But there's a lot anyone can do. The sum total of a lot of people's efforts could fix it. But that means they'll have to step up, one by one.
Schools need volunteers. Call a principal for one of our local schools and ask about volunteering opportunities.
Big Brother/Big Sister is another organization that helps kids one at a time.
I won't even try to list all the things one can do.
In terms of policy, Paradise, I basically agree with what you're saying, but nobody can get up one day and transfer US drug policy from criminal punishment to treatment. That's a long haul project that, on the individual level, consists mainly of just voting, which of course I support.
What any one of us can do, immediately, is pick a social service agency or other public project, and start doing committed, regular volunteering and/or financial contributing. ONE and Ceasefire aren't popular on this blog. Neither are DevCorp and RPCC. My position is that, even if all the things people say about them are true, it would still be possible for an individual to do some good through them. However, there's the YMCA, Big Brother/Big Sister, the public schools, Family Matters, Howard Area Community Center, local churches, and on and on.
And yes, I know that some people are already doing these things.
Remember, Chip, the Race and Gender Baiters of Rogers Park meeting is in the basement of "Mr. Smith's" house, just before the Rogers Park Trilateral Association. Don't forget the secret handshake, or we'll deport you to Libya with an extraordinary rendition to be tortured. And please bring a potluck dish or plastic cutlery for the buffet.
C'mon, RP Dude. Chip is one of US. The people who get shot are THEM. We don't care about THEM.
That's sarcasm, in case anyone missed it.
2yrs have past since you were buried. I say to you brother Live free because although we werent as close as you were with others God used you to shwo me some things he wanted me to know. Bless you always. I still have those football memorise.
I tell you Live on Brother.
Live and R.I.P Clive Flowers
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