Fargo Woman has left a new comment on your post Loyola Park Looks Like Crap. The subject has started to change directions so I gave it a thread of it's own. Read and discuss.
V&J said. . .> "There's plenty of cheap housing in RP, after all. isn't that what RP is all about?"
Cheap housing? In Rogers Park?
Fargo Woman responded....> "I guess it depends on your definition of cheap. Decent rentals are falling like dominos to the condo gluttons and now even the run down buildings are charging outlandish rents. It really is getting to the point where, if you aren't in a government-subsidized apartment, you can barely afford to rent in this neighborhood.
We need some sort of protection in this city for moderate-income-don't-qualify-for-sensible-mortagage-too-intelligent-to-apply-for-an-adjustable-mortgage-renters. Like me. I found a place that fits my needs perfectly, my neighbors are clean and quiet, I love the pretty little street... so, of course, the landlord is getting ready to turn it into a condo building.
I've started looking for a new apartment at approximately the same rent and haven't found anything even remotely acceptable. At the rate things are going by this time next year I won't be "Fargo Woman" anymore, I'll be "Denver Colorado Woman" or, God help me, "Columbus Ohio Woman." I love Chicago but Rogers Park is the only neighborhood I feel connected to (been here for 28 years!) and it was the only one I could afford - until now that is.
So, no, V&J, I have to disagree with you - Rogers Park is not about affordable rentals anymore and probably never will be again.
35 comments:
welcome to gentrification,
its about time you were introduced,
I met gentrification very early on in my life, i think i was about TEN YEARS OLD.
you see I grew up in Lincoln Park,
talk about not feeling connected....
that place is so full of phonies now that its ridiculous,
Rogers Park is gentrifying but will still retain alot of its character, I dont think it will ever get as bad as Lincoln Park.
Count yourself either lucky, or short sighted for not seeing gentrification coming,
its unstoppable and has been marching north and west since the seventies.
There is an easy way to make life affordable for those of us who are way too "rich" for various types of housing assistance but are feeling sqeezed by the escalating rents.
GET RID OF ALL SOCIALIZED HOUSING PROGRAMS. THAT'S RIGHT, ALL SUBSIDIZED HOUSING.
SUNSET THE HUD.
UNWIND IT ALL. EVERY DAMN LAST BIT OF IT.
By subsidized housing I mean every damn last assist to low income renters and middle income buyers.
All these various programs do is create jobs for platoons of bureaucrats so they can make it more difficult and expensive to build and to be a landlord, not cheaper.
Meanwhile, the subsidies of various sorts do nothing but drive rents and purchase prices highers, whether you are talking about Section 8 rental subsidies for poorer people, or FHA and VA loans, city buy-down programs like CPAN, and other subsidies,and/or mortgage assistance for middle class home buyers and government-chartered loan buyers like FNMA that are there to soak up all the bad mortgages as fast as the mortgage scammers can write them..
Maybe even the deduction for mortgage interest ought to go.
This stuff permits landlords and sellers to charge way more for their "product" than would be the case if it were left to the operations of the local housing markets to set the prices.
Section 8, though, is the very worst, because it permits slumlords to charge a rent based on the local "average", which may be skewed by very high-end rentals in places like Streeterville, for deeply substandard apartments.
The net result is that you have a miserable 900 sq ft "3 bed" apt in NOH with a "market" rent of $1400, even though if the same unit were offered with no possibility of subsidies it would be lucky to fetch $700.
Which means that low wage workers who do not qualify for subsidies, and moderate income renters, are being squeezed out by escalating rents made possible by government subsidies of same.
I don't understand why so many people believe they have the right to pay whatever they believe is affordable for rent. The purpose of owning property beyond your primary residence is to make profit. When the neighborhood improves, property values rise (as do taxes) and the demand for housing increases. You should expect to pay more to rent.
Maybe becoming "Columbus Ohio Woman" isn't a bad idea. Just 4 years ago we rented a decent 3 bedroom apartment there for $855 per month (that's $285 per person folks). Think of what you could do with that extra cash.
Jerk Store said..> "When the neighborhood improves, property values rise (as do taxes)"
Three questions.
1) As documented in over 1500 Hell Hole stories, and now other blogs are doing the same thing I am, why isn't the neighborhood improving even with the rise in property taxes?
2) Who's paying the property taxes on all these new PIN number condos that aren't selling? Dozens of PIN numbers where once stood just ONE PIN number.
3) Are all these new alleged individual condo PIN numbers actually registered with the property tax roll right now?
I have to apologize for what my Tommy boy said about this house thing on his little world wide web thing.
You see, my Tommy has always had something of a temper. Oh, you don't even want to hear about the little tantrums he used to throw when the other kids would tease him.
His father and I sent him to the talking doctor, and it seemed to help for a while. At least he stopped hurting insects and small animals. But I think we need to make another appointment for him.
My Tommy just needs to get the angries out!
http://www.angriesout.com
Affordable housing has quickly become a joke in Rogers Park over the past several years, and it's a very unfunny one, at that.
I don't live very far from the beach and the lake. I've been in my current building since 1991. I used to live in what is now a senior apartment building at 1528 W. Morse Avenue. Not a day goes by when I don't come home from work and expect to find a notice that the building is going condo. I don't know much about the conversion process. It probably would not be easy to flip the building over because it has more tiny studios than one-bedrooms. That wouldn't stop someone from pursing the idea of tearing it down and building a condo, however.
I'm just trying to get an understanding of just what the gentrification cheerleaders think that those who have moderate incomes, or have low-incomes, or are poor, or live off of fixed incomes are supposed to do in terms of finding and maintaining affordable housing.
I've noticed that quite a few people who used to attend my church aren't there anymore. Many of them had families, and their incomes couldn't keep up with increasing rents, nor could they afford to buy property. Some were forced to move into crappy neighborhood with way more problems than RP, just so they could have a place to live. It's madness.
Craig Gernhardt said...
"3 Questions"
1) Maybe not so much Rogers Park is improving, but our neighbors to the south have seen improvements--which pushes a lot of first time home buyers looking to live on the north side near the lake to Rogers Park. The neighborhood has the potential or perhaps just a perception that it about to improve, which in turn boosts demand, property values and taxes. A lot of people are making a bet that things will turn for the better...and I do understand there are a lot of condos not selling, but that's not just a RP problem right now.
Although most bloggers seem to think things aren't getting better, a lot of people I've met in the neighborhood tell me its so much better than a decade ago. I never visited the area until this year when looking to buy a place, so I personally can't say if things have improved or not.
2 & 3) No idea, don't have any info on that, so I won't even try.
This is precious.
When people here pile on someone for buying instead of renting, ridiculing them about how they are paying more in interest and taxes (and in the case of condos, assessments) than if they were renting, this particular subject matter bounces around in the forefront of my mind.
There ARE advantages to owning property. Appreciation is one. If you got a fixed mortgage, a fixed 'rent' is another.
I humbly submit this as food for thought.
I agree to throw out the subsidized programs, these "poor" people prolly end up with more cash in hand during a month than I do since they have to pay so much less in rent than I have to. After taxes and my main monthly payment of rent my 30,000k a year is not much.
I had an employee who prolly made a few thousand less than I did a year, had two adult children and yet still somehow qualified for subsidized housing, lived in a nicer place than mine and payed much less, its at these moments that my republican side begins to come out.
Its also why I have become what my friends and I describe a paleoconservative, a return to constitutionalism, etc. Its also why i support Ron Paul for president.
Back to the matter at hand, I believe RP is the best neighborhood to live in in Chicago. I think its still the cheapest and thats my main concern. Sure the crime is high but Ive never had a problem in 6 years, but my friends moved to wrigleyville paying twice as much in rent now just to have a break in within one month of being there. In fact almost everyone I know moves out of Rogers Park after graduating Loyola to more fun places aroudn the city. There just is nothing to do in this area. So the young, usually pretty good neighbors move out, sorta liekthe brain drain of Cleveland where intellgient people liek myself move to places liek Chicago, leaving Cleveland in a bad situation. People like to throw the gentrification word around but I think theres more to it than that.
Not to nit-pick, but in this one sentence I found multiple spelling and grammatical errors -
So the young, usually pretty good neighbors move out, sorta liekthe brain drain of Cleveland where intellgient people liek myself move to places liek Chicago, leaving Cleveland in a bad situation.
Spell check next time? It's spelled like. And try using some more punctuation, you've got quite a run-on there.
Craig,
2)I have heard that once the condo declaration is filed (usually just before the first unit closes), "creating" the condos as individual parcels, it then takes the assessor 12-18 months to issue a tax bill. I the condos are still not sold at that point, it would be the developer's responsibility to pay the taxes.
3) I don't know.
People in the "median" income bracket (that's me and possibly you) are the people who pay for all the subsidized housing programs while deriving no benefit.
The only people who benefit are a few "lottery winners" among the poor- those who manage to score extremely nice places for a subsidized rent that people making $50K a year could not justify even if they could afford them.
The injustice of that is obvious.
What's not so obvious is the way these subsidies skew the entire housing market northward. For example, the rent subsidy is based on the area average, which is derived from averaging ALL area rentals, including 4-room places that rent for $8,000 a month at 3240 Lake Shore Drive. Chicago has a lot of really upper-bracket rentals in the downtown, Lincoln Park, and Lakeview neighborhoods, buildings stuffed with corporate transferees and trust fund babies who like the service and pampering of a luxe rental.
So, because of the factor delieanated above, your "average" rent does not reflect the condition of apts that are collecting subsidies, but they get to charge the HUD the "average" rent of $1400, even though the unit, left to fend for itself without subsidy, would be lucky to fetch $600. Why should a landlord work for someone like me, and give me a nice place for $900 a month and meet my expectations of a clean, attractive, well-maintained, well-heated, vermin-free abode for that price, when he can "work" for the HUD for $1400 a month, renting out a deeply blighted, dirty, vermin-infested, badly heated rathole to someone who is only paying, say, $400 a month?
Same for CPAN subsidies, of which people in my bracket are presumed to benefit.Aside from the injustice of selling someone an apt at a substantial discount to market, the difference funded by either the city or the developer, to someone who ordinarily would not be able to afford it, is that person really benefitting? What you will notice is that the CPAN units are the least marketable in the building and that the "market" price, which is WHAT PEOPLE ARE WILLING TO PAY, is lower than advertised.
Worse, the CPAN buyer will be stuck with the tax load and maint. of a unit much more expensive than he can afford. Why not just buy the older, unrehabbed fixerupper you know you can afford?
Socialized housing contains multiple injustices, and the people it is intended to benefit end up being the biggest losers, while no one benefits except the developer or slumlord.
jerk store said, "Perhaps becoming Colombus Ohio Woman isn't a bad idea."
I think you may have missed my point entirely. I've lived here for 28 years. I became a deacon at my church here. I live, work, worship and shop here. I am emotionally invested here - financially too if you include tithes, consumerism and, yes renting. I am a good neighbor and an excellent tenant. I am also a good citizen of Rogers Park. Why do you think it would be so easy for me to pick up 28 years of life and just move out?
- PEACE -
Craig, when you buy into a new conversion, you will pay all the taxes due from the day you closed when the tax bill is issued. This is what I'm told by real estate agents and it makes sense.
Don't worry, SOMEONE will pay taxes on those units, because someone owns it. Either the developer/seller owns it, or the new resident owns, or the bank owns it (banks own lots of them these days!), but someone owns it and is answerable for the taxes.
Fargo Woman,
Don't be so tentative about becoming "Denver Woman." I moved from Denver (after 17 years there) a year ago to give Chicago a try, and I'm still struggling to understand this place. Denver is half as expensive, and it's actually clean and safe. Maybe I'm just not accustomed to being in a city the size of Chicago yet, but I am still shocked with how expensive some of these neighborhoods are for what you get in return. We moved to Rogers Park because it was one of the only neighborhoods we could afford; even in the last year we have noticed it getting more expensive.
With all of that said, I think RP is one of the best parts of the city. The lakefront and the diversity are worth every penny(minus the open-air drug market, rats, and the mentality that alleys are open for urination).
IT IS DIFFICULT to uproot yourself, I know first-hand. But at some point you have to decide whether or not it's worth staying. (see above comment re: rats, drugs, etc.)
OK
seriously, why does everyone in blogs think they are superior because of spelling and grammar, i dont care about typos, if you cant read them and figure it out thats on you, i dont have time to waste to check what im writing, i let it flow, send it in and let it be, im not writing an academic piece here
imagine the equity that couldve been built over the same amount of time of renting versus owning,
owning gives you more power to stay,
this whole discussion shows the downside of renting, you are more vulnerable to market forces,
thats why i own, thats what i learned from being a youngster,
thats what i learned from lincoln park.
that chronic renting is a poor strategy,
did people really really think that some strange invisible line would materialize and stop gentrification?
some artificial law would be enacted and come to rescue or that people would just be too scared to improve a neigborhood,
those people who really think that Rogers Park isnt improving are crazy, you are seeing the last gasps of crime people pissed that the place is getting better,
and the hellhole that NOH is will be broken by economic and political forces,
its a matter of time, look at the new projects going up or will go up soon on howard.
whiteflight ended a long long time ago and we are seeing seas of revitalization surrounding islands of decay instead of the just decay or a little bit of revitalization,
soon in the future it will be more memorable that any part of the northside or near south side of chicago was ever sketchy or ghetto
remember what happened to close to cabrini green?
can no one remember sams cut rate liquors at the corner of north and halsted,
how long ago did that become ritzy?
its probably been fifteen years or more?
and we thought this process wouldnt continue?
no contigency plan was thought of?
that is just ridiculous
Owning property is a good idea.
Unfortunately, everybody can't afford to buy. Some just don't want to buy for various reasons. I know of people who used to own and swtiched back to renting because it was easier on them financially.
To those who think places like Denver and Columbus are "cheaper" than Chicago, and to those who are tempted to move to such places because they appear cheaper, consider the trade-off involved.
Denver is a lovely place, but you can't live there without a car. That adds approximately $4000 minum to your yearly overhead.
Columbus, OH might be cheap, but anyplace is overpriced when you're not employed. Ohio is now one of the poorest states in the country. Good luck to newcomers trying to break into to the job market there, if there is one. And of course, there is no decent public transportation, so get a car you can live in while you look for a job.
Housing costs at all income levels have escalated sharply in the past 10 years, relative to local economies.
Sometimes owning is a good idea, sometimes it's better to rent and postpone a purchase. Buying a condo is RISKY in this market -- what if you want or have to move and can't sell it? This is the case for so many people (buyers and developers) today and it could get worse. So people get stuck in a condo paying twice as much out of pocket as a rental. And if you think appreciation will one day save the day, yeah, "keep hope alive".
And about whether there are good affordable rentals, I'm sorry but yes there are many decent one and two bedroom apartments available. Have you noticed that most rental building have "for rent" signs? Are prices up, yes -- as they are thoughout the city. But RP is still much more affordable than the hoods to the south.
People assume that if there are condo conversions everywhere, there must be a shortage of affordable rentals. "The sky is falling" cry chicken littles like the doofusses at Loyola U who put out the big study about how bad things are for renters. But guess what, all the former renters who have now become condo owners reduce the demand for rentals. So yes, supply is down but demand is down also -- maybe even further, when you consider that many condos are not converted rentals but new construction buildings.
And don't even get me started about the shortsightedness of tearing down nice old homes in RP to build those future piece of crap new construction concrete hell buildings!
That's my two cents!
and lest ye forget, 'affordable' housing generally brings affordable crime. it's the price one pays for habitrail living
I really can't figure out why someone would rent an apartment in the same neighborhood for 28 years without making an effort to purchase a place... Someone used bad financial sense for three decades, and is now priced out of Rogers Park? I'm sorry if I don't feel so badly for you. The only way to truly control your living space is to own it yourself. And condos in Rogers Park were DIRT CHEAP twenty years ago.
uptownr said, "I really can't figure out why someone would rent an apartment in the same neighborhood for 28 years without making an effort to purchase a place... Someone used bad financial sense for three decades, and is now priced out of Rogers Park? I'm sorry if I don't feel so badly for you. The only way to truly control your living space is to own it yourself. And condos in Rogers Park were DIRT CHEAP twenty years ago."
I'm not asking you to feel "badly" for me. I don't remember asking anything of anyone. I simply made a comment that, in my estimation, Rogers Park is not about "affordable housing" anymore.
By the way, since you brought it up, if by "bad financial sense" you mean I didn't (and still don't) live beyond my means, then yes, I guess you're right. I don't live on credit - I believe living on credit is bad financial sense. I am a member of the "working poor" but I pay all my bills on time, use public transportation instead of owning a car, have no children so I am my only tax deduction and try to live my life without judging others or causing harm. Twenty years ago, I couldn't afford a mortgage anymore than I can today. I have never gotten a raise that even came close to closing the gap between my paycheck and the cost of living much less afforded me the financial security I feel I would need before I could in good conscious take out a mortgage.
As far as your statement that the only way to "truly control your living space is to own it yourself," I would respectfully point out that condo boards are not always going to agree with what you believe is right. For instance, and correct me if I’m wrong, if a condo board wants to put a gazebo in the back yard you, as an owner in that building, have to go in for the cost whether you voted against it or not. Owning one's own property does not immunize anyone from the recent changes in eminent domain; just ask the people whose home Daley is razing to make way for his airport expansion. Now, truth be told, if I had the money to buy a home and cover high utility and heating, increased taxes every year, and any incidentals that may come up like a hole in the roof or new plumbing, well then, sure, I'd buy a home. Frankly, until I've sold my fifth - not first, not second, not third or even fourth - but until I've sold my FIFTH novel, I doubt I'll ever own a home. You see, I prefer to pay for everything in cash. Otherwise, I don't own my possessions, the bank does.
I realize being a renter may be considered a "lifestyle choice" and I'm OK with that and all that it entails. All I'm saying is that yes, it would be nice if there was more protection out there for the Work-a-day Joes and Janes like me and no, Rogers Park is not full of "cheap housing" as V&J claimed.
Peace, my friend, peace.
There are many reasons that a person might choose to rent for 28 years and not buy, but the chief among them is that some people just aren't up to the responsibilities and ongoing hassle of ownership.
I have a couple of friends for whom money is no problem and could easily buy great places, but for the life of me I can't imagine either of the two owning without getting into trouble. In the case of one, it is the maintainance- she simply can't cope with housework or house managment of any sort. When you live in a house, this is bad, but when you live in a condo, it's not just a disaster for you but all the people who live directly dowstream from you when, say, you ignore essential plumbing repairs because you don't want to be bothered with it. This woman wants and needs a simple situation. The other has a very transient job that takes her from city to city. She does not get relocation assistance, and buying and selling constantly is a hassle.
The main reason to own a place is as a hedge against inflation and to have a place that is truly yours. I like a place that I can improve without fear of being moved out, and I like the hedge against escalating rents.
But home ownership is not an intrinsic good and it's not for everyone.
It will be difficult to find an apartment for the same price. Only recent have rent fees increased -- For the past five or so years, the rental market has been completely flat and renters were enjoying zero or very small increases for years. So combining some gentrification in RP and long-time coming rent increases due to taxes, increased heat bills, maintenance, etc... you have a perfect storm.
The rental market may stabilize again in the city in 12 months due to a supply of empty condos. Some will be rented out by banks and lending institutions after acquiring them by foreclosure from Audjustable Rate Mortgage loan buyers who are maxed out, living month-to-month and cannot afford the increased monthly loan cost.
These rental condos will be more expensive than a clean but "tired" vintage apartment, but still rent for much less than the carrying costs of actually owning the property. A $225,000/10% down condo renting for $1400:mo. yields a min. monthly loss of $400-500 for the property owner, assuming the unit can be rented in one month time (a roll of the dice). That could be why Lenders will step in and take over.
I'm not sure on this, but developers should be able to hold onto the properties, rent them and make their payments since their acquisition costs are lower than a home buyer--and eventually sell with a substantial reduction in profit.
Your take makes sense, morse ave, and what is really obvious is that these places are overpriced based on the disparity between the rent they will collect and the costs of ownership, which are even higher than they appear at first flush, since you are figuring only on the mortgage payment, not the additional $300-400 a month in taxes, and another $100 (at least) in insurance.
Hey uptownr,
I remember Joe Moore making some ridiculous statement about some high-priced condos being available for anyone to get. He didn't have an answer when confronted about just whom he thought could.
A lot of folks are living paycheck-to-paycheck, not exactly an ideal situation when trying to save money to buy property or anything else. Their salaries are only going to allow them to do so much. Condos weren't cheap 20 years ago here. I know because I was living here. The same upper middle-class yuppies and rich folks who are buying condos now were the only ones who could afford them back then.
When RP condo conversions started up in the early to mid 1990's (it had been absolutlely dead since the 70's), developers could make the case that it was cheaper to own than to rent ie. out of pocket. And that was at 10% interest rates.
Now it's usually at least double. A nice 2 bedroom apartment rents for say $1,200 and mortage, taxes, assessment and insurance is $2,400/mo for that $199,000 2 bedroom condo.
Strange, but it was really hard to get people to buy here in the early/mid 90's even at those SUPER LOW prices-- you pretty much had to be on the lake or at least east of Sheridan.
Something to think about , , ,
boxing cowboy said, "Condos weren't cheap twenty years ago here. I know because I was living here. The same upper-middle class yuppies and rich folks who are buying condos now were the only ones who could afford them back then."
True, boxing cowboy, very true. My point exactly.
No you are absolutely wrong and you don't know at all what you're talking about. There were NO "upper middle class yuppies" buying condo's here 20 years ago. In fact nobody was buying condos here 20 years ago. 15 years ago urban pioneers started buying the cheap condos that came on the market. 3 bedroom 2 bath 2000 sf units were regularly under $100,000, sometimes much less.
Check your facts.
questionauthority, $59,000 - $100,000 might as well have been $1 million twenty years ago. $100,000 to $200,000 might as well be $1 million today. What's the difference? Besides, twenty years ago there were undeniably far more affordable rentals than there are today so you could still live in Rogers Park even if you couldn't buy a condo or single family home.
By the way, I really like the phrase "Urban Pioneers." It's much more romantic and p/c than "yuppie." Alas, a rose by any other name . . . well, you get the idea.
- PEACE -
My mother 20+ years ago bought one of those early developed condos. There are at least a dozen retired (or soon to be) professionals that I personally know who bought way back when and still live here.
Back then people were choosing Rogers Park for the same reasons today--lake and public transportation access and good value for the money. I guess that is why many choose to stay put once they come to RP.
too funny!
"15 years ago urban pioneers"
change the 'facts' by 5yrs, give them an heroic name, and all of a sudden someone knows everything and the others don't know what they're talking about
i wonder if 'challenge' happens to be one of those pioneers, and also an authority who doesn't want to be challenged
Affordable housing - I know I have lived in this community longer than any of you that provide comments mmmmmm Where should I begin...we bought in to Rogers Park In 1980. Mortgage rates were 17% when we finally closed the rates had dropped to 11% You have to live somewhere...why not invest in yourself, your future and your family and buy a home. There has really been very little gentrification in this community No doubt there are several homes that have sold for very hig prices.
Believe me - these are very beautiful historical homes. They are worth every penny some wealthy people have purchased while electing to live in Rogers Park. That is the true beauty of this community.
Everything in life isn't or doesnt have to be about money. About 10 years ago I was sitting at a baseball game at Loyola Park. Watching my son play ball. I heard some woman talking and saying this neighborhood was getting better, and Joe Moore was responsible for increase in houseing costs and that was a good thing. Believe me, he has nothing to do with rising rates. There was a major housing boom and it is setteling. Re the property I own, the rent I charge my tennants has increased less tha 5% over 8 years. That is a lot less than what I have spent taking care of the property. When my tennants decide to move they have moved. Because they moved I have been without income for 4 months.
I placed ads on craigs list that included pics and I have received one phone call My bills need to be paid monthly I amnot faultin the tennants Just want to know there are some good landlords here that respect their property and the home their tennant wants to mamke
Questionauthority,
Apartments were very cheap and affordable in RP in 1982 when I movie in the area. When the first condos came in, my late sister and I would shake our heads at how many of them were standing empty for months. Why? Because very few could afford them.
It's the same thing now. I still see empty condos, that are now even more expensive than they were back then, with no takers. Meanwhile, the affordable rentals have disappeared, and the rents for the ones that remain have gone up, up and out of sight.
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