What a mess in Chicago's 24th Police District and the 49th Aldermanic Ward. David Sobczyk, 24th Dist. Commander recently admitted that it is policy to allow gangsters to make "shrines" to murdered gang members.Source/Read more.
Blognotes: What do you think about this police policy to protect street gang shrines that glorify a murder of a gang member?
21 comments:
The department shouldn't use their resources to protect such memorials. Yet, if family and friends create a make-shift memorial, I agree with the commander's "common sense" policy when it comes to removing them, as long as the shrine builders aren't defacing property.
As for Mr. Mannis, I don't know if anyone takes him, his letters, or his blog seriously. I cringe when I see you refer to his blog as a "source." He exaggerates his stories in a completely one-sided manner to the point that he is just as credible as Thomas Westgard's various self-fulfilling publications in which he desperately attempts to brown nose his way into some sort of policitcal career. The Bench/Rogers Park Bench/Chicago News Bench (what is it now??) is just one post after another telling us why Mannis is a victim of one thing or another. The Onion is more real than the Bench. I doubt Commander Sobczyk or the Superintendent could take one look at his blog ramblings and takes him serious as well.
If you disagree with the police policies, why not ask the commander what can be done to change them rather than posting dramatic "open letters" in an attempt to embarass the 24th district officers? It's not us vs. them when it comes to the residents and police. I spend enough time working with officers in other areas of the city to know better.
So let these folks grieve and deposit their items at the scene where the death occured as long as they aren't destroying/defacing anything. Just throw the crap away after they leave and go on with your life rather than making a scene and involving the police.
I thought Commander Sobczyk's response was reasonable. Shrines occur in situations where emotions run high. And (sorry mkl) the term zero tolerance really bugs me.
In case you didn't see it, here is Commander David Sobczyk's e-mail response:
In your response to wanting an “official, written response” regarding the policy of gang memorial removal, I will answer as follows: First and foremost, the Police in the 024TH District in no way condone or wish to promote criminal street gangs.
Having said that, the guiding light in the removal of a “memorial” is common sense and practicality; two highly valued attributes that do not lend themselves well to intractable/official policies. In other words, the precise method and timing for the removal of such a memorial is based upon the careful consideration of one or more of the following circumstances and/or concerns:
• Officer Safety
• Public Safety (traffic obstruction issues)
• Location of the Memorial (i.e., public versus private property)
• Availability of Required Street & Sanitation Personnel
• Memorial Content (generic versus gang-related)
In today’s world, the placement of candles, signage and stuffed animals has become a universally conventional practice in honoring the loss of a loved one. For those memorials which have no gang-related connection, the police will typically assess the situation and respectfully inform the family and friends that such a memorial will have a finite existence. Those memorials which are gang-related, will be removed in a more expedient manner pursuant to the aforementioned considerations.
The commander's response, as well as the policy he described, both seem absolutely reasonable to me.
A little more common sense and practicality would go a long way in our community.
It all depends how a ten year old child perceives the shrine.
Does the shrine scare them from joining that madness?
Does the shrine add to the perceived glory of being a gang member?
"As for Mr. Mannis, I don't know if anyone takes him, his letters, or his blog seriously."
I take Tom & his blog seriously, that is, at least as seriously as HE takes himself & his blog - you might do well to chill a bit, yourself.
Hugh, I used to enjoy reading his blog as it offered a refreshing not-so-liberal voice within the community, often in a humorous manner. But the absolutely ludicrous garbage he would post about Obama (for the record, I certainly didn't support nor did I vote for Obama) and his vengeful attitude towards the Chicago Police Department makes him appear to be nothing more than a clown. A sad, bitter clown. My guess is he's not such a bad guy in person, but since I've never met him, I can only judge by his blog postings.
Normally I would just roll my eyes and say nothing, but it gets me fired up when I read these letters directed at our police. These guys have enough crap to deal with everyday. They deal with the Top Cop and his mixed messages..they are trying to rebuild public trust that was damaged due to the acts of a few individuals...they're putting their lives on the line every day...and they come home to their own problems. I, for one, fully support the CPD and trust that they are handling this situation in the most appropriate manner. I will not sit quietly and "chill" while a few individuals bash the CPD and the individuals that protect us...all because they have petty differences in opinion.
There are better ways of approaching this situation rather than dragging Sobczyk's name through the mud. It seems to me The Bench (along with a few other so-called community activists) is more interested in creating drama rather than resolving its dispute with departments' policies. I imagine a more respectful approach would produce more satisfying results.
Well, to start with, your basic description is ass backwards. The "shrine" does not glorify the murder. It commemorates the victim.
Gang-constructed shrines glorify the victim's gang connection - this should not be tolerated.
However, Commander Sobczyk has a point - shrines are often created to commemorate an innocent bystander killed by a gang. It would be heavy-handed to ban all shrines, and it is difficult to distinguish among them. One size does not fit all.
Sorry, but this all sounds far too dramatic to me. Some bloggers who openly and regularly slam the CPD positively wail and moan when they think the CPD has made even a thinly veiled reference to one of them (although they're not sure which one).
Seems to me an argument can be made that the CPD are using great common sense when it comes to these meaningless little shrines.
Sure, the CPD could immediately knock down and remove a shrine, show some force, and further inflame a bunch of clearly crazy gang members just to win an argument that has no real positive outcome.
Or they could let it stay for a couple of days, allow things to calm down a bit and then remove it without anyone getting their panties in a bunch.
Seems to me that the second option is the thinking man's option.
We let them stay up for a day or so. Then we get a garbage truck, pickup all the crap and throw it where it belongs, in the garbage dump.The reason we allow it to stay up at all is simply to maintain the peace. NOTHING is accomplished by removing it immediately after it's put up other than to fan the flames. Let them grieve for their buddy for a day or two. Besides, the deceased may have been nothing more than a fringe player who became caught up in something more than he bargained for.
Big Daddy;
I couldn't disagree with you more. Most often, when a 'gang shrine' is set up, gang members will congregate , often for hours if not days, around such a location, making the situation ripe for retaliatory shooting or violence. This not only increases the possibility of further gang violence on our streets but it places innocent residents and property in jeopardy. There is NO ROOM for tolerance in dealing with 'gang shrines', they should be dealt with and removed immediately.
By not enforcing a zero tolerance policy regarding 'gang shrines', you are in fact, condoning and promoting criminal street gang activity in our community. Street gangs, by definition are criminal enterprises, and as such, NONE of their activities and behavior have a place in our daily lives, particularly on and in the PUBLIC way! To allow any consideration for such activity is to enable, condone, encourage and glorify criminal street gang activity.
MCL, IF the"shrine" creates a disturbance then we remove it. If not, we let it stay for a day or two.
BD
A street gang's shrine is, in and of itself, a disturbance to the law abiding residents/citizens of a community. I repeat: By not enforcing a zero tolerance policy regarding 'gang shrines', particularly those anywhere on the public way, you are in fact, condoning and promoting criminal street gang activity in our neighborhoods. To allow such activity is to enable, condone, encourage and glorify criminal street gang activity. I don't believe that's what 'we' pay you for!
"WE SERVE & PROTECT"
I don't believe that the above was ever meant to apply to the criminal element among us?
MCL-
Then we will just have to disagree. Oh, let's not forget that I pay taxes and my salary too. And I'm OK with my tax dollars being used in this manner.
Commander Sobczyk wrote: "First and foremost, the Police in the 024TH District in no way condone or wish to promote criminal street gangs."
mcl responded:
"By not enforcing a zero tolerance policy regarding 'gang shrines', you are, in fact, condoning and promoting criminal street gang activity in our community. There is no other way to see it!" I seriously question MY tax dollars being spent in this manner (and I am willing to bet that many,if not most others, share my view).
mcl--It's not always clear cut if a person is killed due to gang activities or not. A memorial doesn't necessarily "glorify" the means that led to the death...it's mourning the loss of life--gang member or not. You can look at it as a reminder of the consequences of participating in such activities just as well. Just because the police don't sweep in and remove the stuff doesn't mean they condone gang activity.
Frankly, it would be a waste of the police departments's time to have to deal with shrine clean-up. Where do you draw the line? Do we send the police to clean up flowers left at the scene of an auto accident? Using your reasoning, failure to do so would indicate the police condone reckless driving. What if a kid gets hit by a bus? Let's send the police after family members grieving at that site--we shouldn't glorify stepping in front of buses.
Sending the police in for this sort of thing will do nothing but fuel more hatred upon the people they need to reach out to the most.
Jerk Store,
You obviously did not read my post communications with Commander Sobczyk,(nhna.blogspot.com) and his reference to generic memorials, here is a part of my comment:
"While I appreciate your stated "guiding light" in dealing with generic memorials, I strongly disagree with this approach in dealing with 'gang shrines'. It is like comparing 'apples & oranges'."
As far as the actual 'clean up', that is and always been done by Streets and Sanitation crews (under the watchful eyes of police), unless of course, it is done early on when there is only an item or two, and it can be dealt with by a squad unit. In the immediate NoH neighborhood where I live, that's how it's been done. Sending the police in for this sort of thing will establish who is in charge and that gang activity of any kind is not going to be tolerated.
Do yourself a favor and read the book, "Fixing Broken Windows", to get a realistic understanding of how police can and do successfully deal with urban gangs!
Jerk Store said: "Sending the police in for this sort of thing will do nothing but fuel more hatred upon the people they need to reach out to the most."
mcl said: "Using that kind of 'logic', I guess we should not immediately remove gang graffiti, lest we hurt the gang-bangers feelings, for not allowing them to mark their territory and get their message out. Give me a break!"
mcl, I have not read your blog--so maybe were not that far off in opinion. But, to respond to your last comments, I believe I made it clear that I support the "common sense" policy, specifying that defacing property (graffiti) falls into the category of things that shouldn't be tolerated. I also mentioned that you should just remove the crap yourself without involving the police or trying to make a story out of it (ie, I don't care if anyone's feelings are hurt). My first post on this thread clearly spelled that out--so that BS response wasn't necessary. Use a little common sense and it's easy to see the difference between graffitti and a curbside memorial.
Ultimately, mcl, we are on the same side--we both want a safer commnunity. The police department is on our side as well. My beef isn't so much about the shrine issue. It's more about how a few people decided to go off on the CPD in such a disrectful manner. Again, this ordeal (like many others) seems to be more about raising hell and blogging about it, rather than actually working to make this a better community.
Jerk Store
I don't know where you live, but I wonder if you and your neighbors have ever had to deal with a 'gang shrine' and/or serious gang activity close up in your immediate area. Based on your comments, I would bet you have not. The bottom line is that street gangs and their members are DOMESTIC TERRORISTS and should be dealt with as such, particularly by the authorities.
ZERO TOLERENCE!
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